Sound Practices Mailing List Files - Volume 1
=========================================================================
From: JIM_FLOWERS@HP-USA-om24.om.hp.com
Subject: 300A vs. 300B test settings
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 97 18:06:19 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n103
Item Subject: cc:Mail Text
Help,
On a tube tester, are the settings for a 300A the same as those for a
300B?
Thanks,
JF
jim_flowers@hp.com
=========================================================================
From: JEAN-PHILIP_GARIGON@HP-Germany-om7.om.hp.com
Subject: 300B Amp from Costruire HIFI
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 97 13:48:28 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n072
Hello.
For those interested with the 300B Amp. Have a look on
http://www.omnibus.it/audio/chf-30kat.htm Schema amp + PS
JP
=========================================================================
From: JEAN-PHILIP_GARIGON@HP-Germany-om7.om.hp.com
Subject: 300B Amp from Costruire HIFI
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 97 15:58:38 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n076
_
Hello.
For those interested with the 300B Amp. Have a look on
http://www.omnibus.it/audio/chf-30kat.htm Schema amp + PS
JP
=========================================================================
From: Grover Gardner <groverg@bellatlantic.net>
Subject: Re: 300B Amp from Costruire HIFI
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:08:03 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n077
At 3:58 PM +0200 10/20/97, JEAN-PHILIP_GARIGON@HP-Germany-om7.om.hp.com wrote:
> Hello.
>
> For those interested with the 300B Amp. Have a look on
>
> http://www.omnibus.it/audio/chf-30kat.htm Schema amp + PS
Thank you, Jean-Philip. A very good article and a nice schematic. Jibes
nicely with what I am working on at the moment. Don't know what that input
tube is, and don't have any specs. I'm curious about an American
equivalent. Is the 12A really close? Anyone? Not sure I'm up for a DH
voltage-amp stage anyway...? It's hard to credit how amazing a
choke-loaded driver sounds until you've heard one. The tough part is
getting a circuit like this to sound fast and dynamic. I've gone ahead and
direct-coupled the 6SL7 to the 46 and put a choke on the plate of the 46.
Since I like to build for direct input, I'm using the 46 for it's extra
gain. Maybe this is my mistake...??
Grover Gardner
groverg@bellatlantic.net
=========================================================================
From: Grover Gardner <groverg@bellatlantic.net>
Subject: Re: 300B Amp from Costruire HIFI
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:22:38 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n079
I put the "finishing" touches on my 5691/46/VV32 amps, at least as
"finished" as you can get with a breadboard that looks like a seventh-grade
science project. The last time I took a run at this design I wound up with
a lot of "potential"--hints of majesty but a dry, compressed sound that
eventually disappointed. This time, a streamlined power supply, more
optimal loading of the 5691 and the use of an 83 rectifier have wrought a
complete turnaround. The sound is fast, liquid and full. I am extremely
pleased with the results. It was interesting to compare notes with the CHF
article, particularly regarding the 83--I suppose the choke-loaded driver
is particularly sensitive to the "tone" of the PS. Also gratifying to note
was the author's insistence on choke filtering in the filament supplies.
Though I am not using any dc supplies on this amp, my experience with dc
supplies confirms that this makes all the difference in the world.
Ideally one shouldn't have to demand too much gain from a circuit like
this. I am going to spend some time on a tranny-output 26 preamp over the
next week or two, if I can, then I'd like to revisit the amp and replace
the high-mu 5691 with a medium-mu tube like the 5692 or even a 27 and
reduce the gain demands on the circuit. I'm going to try to retain the
direct-coupling between the first two stages. Since I am not doing fixed
bias, my PS voltage is considerably higher than in the CHF article, and the
direct-coupled voltages all fell into place neatly. For this reason also,
I think I'll stick to the 46, since it fits so well into the scheme.
Finally, a pair of real plate chokes from Lefevre or elsewhere will make an
improvement as well.
Friday I'm taking to amps to a friend's to look at them on a 'scope. Hack
that I am, I fully expect to be horrified by the readouts. Any good news
will be a perk! I'll report the results. Hopefully the 'scope readings
will point to ways to optimize the circuit.
Grover Gardner
groverg@bellatlantic.net
=========================================================================
From: Grover Gardner <groverg@bellatlantic.net>
Subject: RE: 300B Amp from Costruire HIFI
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 02:24:00 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n083
At 2:44 PM +0930 10/24/97, Sellek, Grant (DOT) wrote:
>Grover, I recall your involvement in a thread on direct coupling a while
>back where, I think, you said something like "there aint no going back
>now!", referring to how pleased you were with the sound.
>
>Looking back over the passage of time since then, what are your current
>thoughts on direct coupling, particularly on the 300B amps you work
>with? And how about fixed bias? Strictly your personal experiences and
>thoughts.
Oh boy! I get to opine :-) Tom Ronan and I had a discussion about direct
coupling a while ago, strictly from a subjective POV, talking about a
direct-coupled 6SN7 front end. Tom felt things improved when a cap was
inserted between the two stages. I tried it and thought that some of the
clarity was lost but the bass seemed firmer and the imaging more solid.
Hmmmm. In this circuit, I started with a cap between the 5691 and the 46.
Then I thought it would be cool to choke-load the 46 so I direct coupled
the two and heaved the 46 plate and cathode upwards 180 volts. It was like
throwing off a blanket over the sound. Combination of the choke and the
dc, I suppose. The mids and highs on this circuit are wonderful, the bass
is not so hot. I've got 25 henries on the 46 and it could be a this, or I
have wondered if it is the direct-coupling which is at fault? Technically
I don't know enough to say for sure. What I *haven't* tried is
choke-loading the 46 AND cap coupling, like in the CHF article. The author
of this article does not discuss direct-coupling, which would certainly be
an option with a choke-loaded driver and low-voltage input tube. I don't
know why. Tomorrow I take the amps for a look on a scope and a
consultation with a tube guru who might have some suggestions. For a while
I thought, "Take the circuit that sounds better", then I thought, "What's
the point of that? Take the one that's more interesting but poses problems
and get some answers." So I am.
I remember what I said some time ago when I first tried DC, and it does
have a wonderful effect on the openness and clarity of the sound. I don't
see why it would affect the bass regions but there's a lot I don't know
yet.
Given my power demands, I haven't much interest in direct-coupling the
driver and output tube, since usually this means compromising the power of
the output tube, and I can't afford that.
As for fixed bias, I've only tried it once, when Ronan was visiting and we
were messing with the VV32s. We tossed together a little bias supply for
each amp and cobbled it on. Rat Shack bridge, a little choke and cheap
caps. While the sense of power increased, the music died a horrible death
and sounded dry and flat. That's the only time I've ever tried it. Tom
thinks you have to be as fussy about the bias supply build as the power
supply. Maybe a tube-rectified bias supply, like in the old Brook amps,
would sound better. Anyone else?
Grover Gardner
groverg@bellatlantic.net
=========================================================================
From: "Sellek, Grant (DOT)" <Grant.Sellek@roads.sa.gov.au>
Subject: RE: 300B Amp from Costruire HIFI
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:44:20 +0930
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n083
Grover, I recall your involvement in a thread on direct coupling a while
back where, I think, you said something like "there aint no going back
now!", referring to how pleased you were with the sound.
Looking back over the passage of time since then, what are your current
thoughts on direct coupling, particularly on the 300B amps you work
with? And how about fixed bias? Strictly your personal experiences and
thoughts.
TIA,
Grant
Grant Sellek
Adelaide, Australia
grant.sellek@roads.sa.gov.au
>----------
>From: Grover Gardner[SMTP:groverg@bellatlantic.net]
><<cut>> I'm going to try to retain the
>direct-coupling between the first two stages. Since I am not doing fixed
>bias, my PS voltage is considerably higher than in the CHF article, and the
direct-coupled voltages all fell into place neatly. <<cut>>
=========================================================================
From: Barton Shepherd <bartonw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: RE: 300B Amp from Costruire HIFI
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:16:18 +1000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n083
Grover said:
>
Tom Ronan and I had a discussion about direct
coupling a while ago, strictly from a subjective POV, talking about a
direct-coupled 6SN7 front end. Tom felt things improved when a cap was
inserted between the two stages. I tried it and thought that some of the
clarity was lost but the bass seemed firmer and the imaging more solid.
>
I'm sorry but to me this means nothing witrhout a specification of the exact operating points tried
for each half. i.e. HT, Plate R, bias etc.
I have achieved stunning results from a very refined DC 6SN7 scheme (not developed by me). And even
better when neither cathode bypassed!!!!
Cap coupling totally stuffed it.
Cheers
Bart (not wishing to buy an argument and totally pissed with the (other) crap on the list lately)
=========================================================================
From: tronan@orion.it.luc.edu (Thomas Ronan)
Subject: RE: 300B Amp from Costruire HIFI
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:26:00 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n085
Grover wrote:
>Oh boy! I get to opine :-) Tom Ronan and I had a discussion about direct
>coupling a while ago, strictly from a subjective POV, talking about a
>direct-coupled 6SN7 front end. Tom felt things improved when a cap was
...
>As for fixed bias, I've only tried it once, when Ronan was visiting and we
>were messing with the VV32s. We tossed together a little bias supply for
...
>and sounded dry and flat. That's the only time I've ever tried it. Tom
>thinks you have to be as fussy about the bias supply build as the power
...
You know...I just wanted you all to know that Grover is the absolute
coolest in the whole world. I haven't written a damn thing to this list in
ages hardly, which is a shame. Too much time spent on school, blah blah
blah. But Grovey has kept me alive. If you took all of his posts (and I
went back...damn he writes a lot of good stuff these days) and took out
little pieces of them where he says "Tom says..." then I look like I've
been a decent contributor lately. He's so understanding.
*grin*
Tom
- ------
Thomas Ronan tronan@orion.it.luc.edu
1045 W. Montana, Chicago, IL 60614 773.528.0882
Lowther Club of America, Chicago Representative
=========================================================================
From: Grover Gardner <groverg@bellatlantic.net>
Subject: RE: 300B Amp from Costruire HIFI
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 04:25:05 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n086
At 5:16 PM +1000 10/24/97, Barton Shepherd wrote:
>Grover said:
>
>>
>Tom Ronan and I had a discussion about direct
>coupling a while ago, strictly from a subjective POV, talking about a
>direct-coupled 6SN7 front end. Tom felt things improved when a cap was
>inserted between the two stages. I tried it and thought that some of the
>clarity was lost but the bass seemed firmer and the imaging more solid.
>>
>
>I'm sorry but to me this means nothing witrhout a specification of the
>exact operating points tried for each half. i.e. HT, Plate R, bias etc.
I agree. The sound of this little circuit changes dramatically with slight
shifts in the operating points.
>
>I have achieved stunning results from a very refined DC 6SN7 scheme (not
>developed by me). And even better when neither cathode bypassed!!!!
Well, I don't know about unbypassing both stages--given my power
requirements, this led to over-driving the input stage grids. But I agree
that's it's incredibly good for such a simple scheme.
Grover Gardner
groverg@bellatlantic.net
=========================================================================
From: Grover Gardner <groverg@bellatlantic.net>
Subject: RE: 300B Amp from Costruire HIFI
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 04:59:34 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n086
At 1:26 PM -0500 10/24/97, Thomas Ronan wrote:
>You know...I just wanted you all to know that Grover is the absolute
>coolest in the whole world. I haven't written a damn thing to this list in
>ages hardly, which is a shame. Too much time spent on school, blah blah
>blah. But Grovey has kept me alive. If you took all of his posts (and I
>went back...damn he writes a lot of good stuff these days) and took out
>little pieces of them where he says "Tom says..." then I look like I've
>been a decent contributor lately. He's so understanding.
That's because, like any good audiophile, I never trust my own opinions :-)
Grover Gardner
groverg@bellatlantic.net
=========================================================================
From: Rhthatcher@ra.rockwell.com
Subject: 300B amp help
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 12:42:20 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n284
Ok, most of you will probably want to shoot me, but here is my "problem".
my uncle is sick of hearing me talk about how good tube sound is, so he's
going to trust me
with thousands of his dollars to build a great system (from a kit). i
warned him about prices,
but he is ok with it (being the "rich" uncle everyone seems to have). so,
what the hell
should i get that is within reason? the bonus is that he'll build me
whatever speakers
i tell him to build himself. he's big into woodworking. his wood shop is
bigger than my
4 BR apartment...
i'm telling him:
Lynn Olson's ME2's for size reasons (can be built for < $1000, right?)
Welborne Labs Laurel - pretty good design, good parts, good price, kit
good choices? good bang for buck?
i need a preamp with a remote for him. who makes a decent tubed one? is
the melos any good?
i'd hate for him to go buy a preamp at circuit city for the remote and get
unsatisfactory sound.
he wants the remote though... any ideas?
the bigger bonus: he's getting me an amp for doing this! the only SE i've
heard in my place
was a wavelength duetto, and it was killer. will the wellborne laurel
offer similar sound?
i may cut it up and put IT's in it later, but hey, first things first.
randy
=========================================================================
From: Roscoe Primrose <roscoe@aiko.com>
Subject: Re: 300B amp help
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 15:26:05 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n284
Rhthatcher@ra.rockwell.com wrote:
> Ok, most of you will probably want to shoot me, but here is my "problem".
>
> my uncle is sick of hearing me talk about how good tube sound is, so he's
> going to trust me
> with thousands of his dollars to build a great system (from a kit). i
> warned him about prices,
> but he is ok with it (being the "rich" uncle everyone seems to have). so,
> what the hell
> should i get that is within reason? the bonus is that he'll build me
> whatever speakers
> i tell him to build himself. he's big into woodworking. his wood shop is
> bigger than my
> 4 BR apartment...
>
> i'm telling him:
>
> Lynn Olson's ME2's for size reasons (can be built for < $1000, right?)
> Welborne Labs Laurel - pretty good design, good parts, good price, kit
>
> good choices? good bang for buck?
>
> i need a preamp with a remote for him. who makes a decent tubed one? is
> the melos any good?
> i'd hate for him to go buy a preamp at circuit city for the remote and get
> unsatisfactory sound.
> he wants the remote though... any ideas?
All of the Cary pre-amps are available with remotes as an option, although you
only get remote volume control.... Ron Welborne was working on one when I was
out there in Jan, you might talk to him as well....
>
>
> the bigger bonus: he's getting me an amp for doing this! the only SE i've
> heard in my place
> was a wavelength duetto, and it was killer. will the wellborne laurel
> offer similar sound?
> i may cut it up and put IT's in it later, but hey, first things first.
>
> randy
- --
Roscoe Primrose -- mailto:roscoe@aiko.com -- http://www.aiko.com/roscoe
"Once in a while you get shown the light
In the strangest of places if you look at it right." Robert Hunter
"640K ought to be enough for anybody" , Bill Gates, 1981
=========================================================================
From: "T. Loesch" <ezee_e@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: 300B amp help
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 02:52:35 PDT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n285
Hi there,
>Lynn Olson's ME2's for size reasons (can be built for < $1000, right?)
I would say the adavantage of these is negated by the stands needed. I
cannot see any reason for not making the full Ariel for anything but a
Center-Cannel in a Hometheather.
And with the Ariel, you get away without a Subwoofer...
>Welborne Labs Laurel - pretty good design, good parts, good price,
>kit
>
>good choices? good bang for buck?
Probably.
>i need a preamp with a remote for him. who makes a decent tubed
>one? i
Welborne Lab's has also got Preamp Kit's. But I'd recommend the
(passive) Little Job from Creek if the Laurel can work with a "passive"
Preamp. The Creek is nice clean and cheap. It has only got two Inputs
and a tape-loop but does full Remote Control and is seriously cheep over
here. It is imported into the US by Roy "Music" Hall....
Otherwise e-mail me directly and I dig out for you the Address of a UK
Company who sell the Panasonic For Audio Volume-Pot (motorised) and a
matching Remote-Receiver Circuit which can make anything that takes a
100k or 10k Pot Remote Controlled. The Price is not inconsiderable (with
a nice looking contolls all home-automatation Remote using a LCD
Touchscreen the total would come to about 400 USD - the Pot and Receiver
are about 250 USD), but it is probably the second-best solution....
It can be fitted to any existing Preamp or probably the Laurel Kit could
be made into an "Integrated" Amp....
Later Thorsten
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
From: "Lynn T. Olson" <lynno@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: 300B amp help
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 14:55:22 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n286
>>i need a preamp with a remote for him. who makes a decent tubed
>>one? i
>
>Welborne Lab's has also got Preamp Kit's. But I'd recommend the
>(passive) Little Job from Creek if the Laurel can work with a "passive"
>Preamp. The Creek is nice clean and cheap. It has only got two Inputs
>and a tape-loop but does full Remote Control and is seriously cheep over
>here. It is imported into the US by Roy "Music" Hall....
>
>Otherwise e-mail me directly and I dig out for you the Address of a UK
>Company who sell the Panasonic For Audio Volume-Pot (motorised) and a
>matching Remote-Receiver Circuit which can make anything that takes a
>100k or 10k Pot Remote Controlled. The Price is not inconsiderable (with
>a nice looking contolls all home-automatation Remote using a LCD
>Touchscreen the total would come to about 400 USD - the Pot and Receiver
>are about 250 USD), but it is probably the second-best solution....
Ahem, I guess I should stop lurking. I've been mooching a Jeff Rowland
Synergy preamp for the last week or so, and I've gotten hopelessly addicted
to the remote control, which features 0.5dB volume control steps, as well
as L/R balance with LED indication in the preamp of the "centered"
condition, and silent operation ... no clicks or other stuff. I've been
enjoying the indecent luxury of making 0.5dB balance corrections on a
track-by-track basis ... even in the age of CD it makes an improvement to
trim the level and balance just a wee bit on each track.. and 0.5dB is just
the right amount of L/R correction, with the "right" track-by-track level
seeming to vary maybe 3dB to get the correct subjective playback level
(scale distortion and all that, you know). My Vice President in charge of
Everything, Karna, has thoughtfully suggested that it does really sound
better to make the fine adjustments right where you're sitting, rather than
bounce up and down again during the whole CD.
It doesn't hurt the Rowland sounds damn good, bettered only by the
formidable parafeed preamp that Dan and John are working on. Before the
good Doc appeared on my doorstep with the beta parafeed preamp in tow,
Karna and I were seriously contemplating how we'd raise the bucks to pay
for the Rowland (even on accomodation it is still plenty expensive).
So Mr. Loesch, I'd be interested in the motorized-pot and remote-control
info as well.
As for ME2 versus Ariel versus Whamos, sheesh, that's a subjective call.
The Ariels and ME2's are pretty similar to each other (the Ariel has a
little more natural bass and better midrange compared to the ME2), and both
are somewhat different than the Whamo's. I think the Whamo's are more
efficient ... perhaps as much as 2 or 3dB, so this could make a difference
on the kind of partnering amplifier. The image quality and focus of the
Whamo's is different than the Ariel/ME2's, with the Whamos' being better
suited to the short-wall speaker layout, and Ariel/ME2's working better on
the long wall and well out into the room (just wild guesses here, gathered
from limited listening impressions).
Lynn T. Olson
E-mail: lynno@teleport.com
Ariel Speaker Page: http://www.teleport.com/~lynno/Ariel.htm
=========================================================================
From: SSell71096 <SSell71096@aol.com>
Subject: Re: 300B amp help (remote preamps)
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 22:45:11 EDT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n286
> I've been mooching a Jeff Rowland Synergy preamp for the last week or so,
and I've gotten hopelessly addictedto the remote control, which features 0.5dB
volume control steps, as well as L/R balance with LED indication in the preamp
of the "centered" condition, and silent operation ... no clicks or other
stuff. <
I believe that this is true of the Sonic Frontiers Line series of preamps.
Also they have good headphone amps internally with the Headroom processor
included.
- -dave
=========================================================================
From: "T. Loesch" <ezee_e@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: 300B amp help (remote preamps)
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 02:08:16 PDT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n287
Hi all,
>I believe that this is true of the Sonic Frontiers Line series of
preamps.
Yes. And they also use the CS3310 Volume Control with a lousy CMOS
Op-Amp smack bang in the Middle of the thing....
And the Guy's at ARC use the Xicor/Dallas electronic Pot's, which at
least eliminate the Op-Amp, but still loads of FET Switches in each one
of them....
Of course if your main source is Seedee, non of that matters much....
Kind regards Thorsten.
======================================
e-mail:
Thorsten@tnt-audio.com
Visit TNT-Audio on the Web - the only advertising
free audio web-zine.
http://www.tnt-audio.com
======================================
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
From: "Sune Frost-Olsen" <sune@post5.tele.dk>
Subject: 300B basing diagram?
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 08:57:31 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n250
Hi All,
I am just now building up a dual mono 300B SE amp and I just realized
that I dont have the basing diagram!
Please will somebody tell me:
Pin no.1=
- - 2=
- - 3=(*marked with pin)
- - 4=
TIA friends.
Best Regards,
Sune
sune@post5.tele.dk
=========================================================================
From: Finn Hammer <f-hammer@post5.tele.dk>
Subject: Re: 300B basing diagram?
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 10:21:38 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n250
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- --------------605D7BC16C51
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Sune Frost-Olsen wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I am just now building up a dual mono 300B SE amp and I just realized
> that I dont have the basing diagram!
>
> Please will somebody tell me:
>
> Pin no.1=
> - 2=
> - 3=(*marked with pin)
> - 4=
>
> TIA friends.
>
> Best Regards,
> Sune
> sune@post5.tele.dk
En lille gif fortæller mere end en masse ord. Og denneher viser en 300B
med glasset pegende _væk_ fra dig:
Held og lykke med projectet. Hvor hænger du ud, sune?
finn
- --
HOME OF
Tractrix Horns, Tube Amps,
Fieldcoil Loudspeakers and Computer Graphics
http://home5.inet.tele.dk/f-hammer/
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dFu3W+GrfesagAuSAVAAADs=
- --------------605D7BC16C51--
=========================================================================
From: Richard Jones <rcjones@students.wisc.edu>
Subject: 300B comparisons
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:09:06 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n130
Dear All,
i know that there has been a lot said about different 300B makes, but i'm
looking for an inexpensive 300B. I was looking at the Sovtek stuff or
those new chinese 300B that steve at Angela is selling.
Any ideas? Keep in mind that i need a matched Quad of them.. perhaps
there is someone out there is willing to sell some?
Also what are the sound differences like in these different makes of 300B?
thanks for any help,
Richard
=========================================================================
From: "Le Cleac'h J.-M." <lecleach@cgi.ensmp.fr>
Subject: 300BPP in ASCII, (was Re: joelist schematics )
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:52:48 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n455
PUSH-PULL300B, 15W CLASS A (after Loesh and Morrison)
215V
|
o-----o--------o-----R5---o--------o----445V
| | | | | o------o
C1 | | R6 R7 300B | |
| | | | | plate | o----o
| | | | o--------C2--o--grid | | |
| | | | | | heater )||( |
| R2 R3 o--------+-----o | | | ( || ) |
| | | | | | R9 a b )||( |
GROUND | o----------+--------+---o | | ( || ) |
o--------+------o | | | | GROUND 460V--)||(
OUTPUT
| 6DJ8 | | | | | | | ( || ) |
INPUT plate plate | plate plate | | R10 a b )||( |
o--o-grid grid---o o-grid grid--o | | | | ( || ) |
| cathod cathod | cathod cathod | | heater )||( |
| | P1 | | | | o--C3--o--grid | | |
| o-\/\/\/-o | o---o----o plate | o----o
| T | 80V-| 300B | |
| 1.5V-| | | to 300B a o------o
R1 o---o---o R4 R8 heaters | OPT 5kVC
| | | | | ( || ____
| D1 D2 | -70V )||( |
| | | | 77V-o-----( || ) MAINS
| o---o---o | | )||(____|
| | | R11 ( ||
| -50V | | |
| | | b
o-----------------o-------------------o heater
| transformer
GROUND 5VCT 3A
P1 = potentiometer 100 ohms D1 = D2 = 1N5309 diodes
R1 = 100k C1 = 6.8uF
R2 = R3 = 47k C2 = C3 = 0.22uF
R4 = 1k
R5 = 39k
R6 = R7 = 15k
R8 = 7.5k 10W
R9 = R10 = 150k
R11 = 450ohms 25W
=========================================================================
From: "Le Cleac'h J.-M." <lecleach@cgi.ensmp.fr>
Subject: Re2: 300BPP in ASCII, (was Re: joelist schematics )
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 10:15:56 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n455
PUSH-PULL300B, 15W CLASS A (after Loesh and Morrison)
215V
|
o-----o--------o-----R5---o--------o----445V
| | | | | o------o
C1 | | R6 R7 300B | |
| | | | | plate | o----o
| | | | o--------C2--o--grid | | |
| | | | | | heater )||( |
| R2 R3 o--------+-----o | | | ( || ) |
| | | | | | R9 a b )||( |
GROUND | o----------+--------+---o | | ( || ) |
o--------+------o | | | | GROUND 460V--)||( OUTPUT
| 6DJ8 | | | | | | | ( || ) |
INPUT plate plate | plate plate | | R10 a b )||( |
o--o-grid grid---o o-grid grid--o | | | | ( || ) |
| cathod cathod | cathod cathod | | heater )||( |
| | P1 | | | | o--C3--o--grid | | |
| o-\/\/\/-o | o---o----o plate | o----o
| T | 80V-| 300B | |
| 1.5V-| | | to 300B a o------o
R1 o---o---o R4 R8 heaters | OPT 5kVC
| | | | | ( || ____
| D1 D2 | -70V )||( |
| | | | 77V-o-----( || ) MAINS
| o---o---o | | )||(____|
| | | R11 ( ||
| -50V | | |
| | | b
o-----------------o-------------------o heater
| transformer
GROUND 5VCT 3A
P1 = potentiometer 100 ohms D1 = D2 = 1N5309 diodes
R1 = 100k C1 = 6.8uF
R2 = R3 = 47k C2 = C3 = 0.22uF
R4 = 1k
R5 = 39k
R6 = R7 = 15k
R8 = 7.5k 10W
R9 = R10 = 150k
R11 = 450ohms 25W
=========================================================================
From: Dan Kerl <dlkerl@ro.com>
Subject: Re: 300BPP in ASCII, (was Re: joelist schematics )
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:07:26 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n456
Le Cleac'h J.-M. wrote:
>
> PUSH-PULL300B, 15W CLASS A (after Loesh and Morrison)
>
> 215V
> |
> o-----o--------o-----R5---o--------o----445V
> | | | | | o------o
> C1 | | R6 R7 300B | |
> | | | | | plate | o----o
> | | | | o--------C2--o--grid | | |
> | | | | | | heater )||( |
> | R2 R3 o--------+-----o | | | ( || ) |
> | | | | | | R9 a b )||( |
> GROUND | o----------+--------+---o | | ( || ) |
> o--------+------o | | | | GROUND 460V--)||(
> OUTPUT
> | 6DJ8 | | | | | | | ( || ) |
> INPUT plate plate | plate plate | | R10 a b )||( |
> o--o-grid grid---o o-grid grid--o | | | | ( || ) |
> | cathod cathod | cathod cathod | | heater )||( |
> | | P1 | | | | o--C3--o--grid | | |
> | o-\/\/\/-o | o---o----o plate | o----o
> | T | 80V-| 300B | |
> | 1.5V-| | | to 300B a o------o
> R1 o---o---o R4 R8 heaters | OPT 5kVC
> | | | | | ( || ____
> | D1 D2 | -70V )||( |
> | | | | 77V-o-----( || ) MAINS
> | o---o---o | | )||(____|
> | | | R11 ( ||
> | -50V | | |
> | | | b
> o-----------------o-------------------o heater
> | transformer
> GROUND 5VCT 3A
>
> P1 = potentiometer 100 ohms D1 = D2 = 1N5309 diodes
>
> R1 = 100k C1 = 6.8uF
> R2 = R3 = 47k C2 = C3 = 0.22uF
> R4 = 1k
> R5 = 39k
> R6 = R7 = 15k
> R8 = 7.5k 10W
> R9 = R10 = 150k
> R11 = 450ohms 25W
This is an excellent example. You might want to disable automatic
returns in your mail composition software, as evidenced by the unwanted
carriage return/linefeed that got inserted before the word 'OUTPUT'.
How does this amp sound? I've always been a fan of differential
amplifiers.
- --
Dan Kerl
dlkerl@ro.com
=========================================================================
From: Roscoe Primrose <roscoe@aiko.com>
Subject: Re: 300B questions
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 16:56:02 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n264
Sune Frost-Olsen wrote:
> Hey out there,
>
> I have now for some days a Sovtek300B se amp up and running. But the
> 300B's have a blue light glowing from them - is that air or what...?
> is that to worry about?
>
No, that's normal. It's actually from electrons hitting the inside of
the glass.
> Another thing is that the sound is in my ears quiet "dry" - is that
> normal? My first breadboard amp R120 was more soft and sweet in the
> sound (using the same driver 6sn7gtb ac coupled. Maybe the Zin should
> be higher (now 100K)? The operating point is: B+ 500V, 85 mA, Rk=1K
> (85V).
>
What are you using for output transformers? Coupling cap? Cathode
bypass caps? 6SN7GTB operating point?
> Cheers,
> Sune
> sune@post5.tele.dk
- --
Roscoe Primrose -- mailto:roscoe@aiko.com -- http://www.aiko.com/roscoe
"Once in a while you get shown the light
In the strangest of places if you look at it right." Robert Hunter
"640K ought to be enough for anybody" , Bill Gates, 1981
=========================================================================
From: "Sune Frost-Olsen" <sune@post5.tele.dk>
Subject: 300B questions
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 21:08:21 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n264
Hey out there,
I have now for some days a Sovtek300B se amp up and running. But the
300B's have a blue light glowing from them - is that air or what...?
is that to worry about?
Another thing is that the sound is in my ears quiet "dry" - is that
normal? My first breadboard amp R120 was more soft and sweet in the
sound (using the same driver 6sn7gtb ac coupled. Maybe the Zin should
be higher (now 100K)? The operating point is: B+ 500V, 85 mA, Rk=1K
(85V).
Cheers,
Sune
sune@post5.tele.dk
=========================================================================
From: "Sune Frost-Olsen" <sune@post5.tele.dk>
Subject: Re: 300B questions
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 23:39:26 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n264
> From: Roscoe Primrose <roscoe@aiko.com>
> To: Sune Frost-Olsen <sune@post5.tele.dk>
> Cc: SPmaillist <sound@deliverator.io.com>
> Subject: Re: 300B questions
> Date: 28. april 1998 22:56
>
> > Another thing is that the sound is in my ears quiet "dry" - is
that
> > normal? My first breadboard amp R120 was more soft and sweet in
the
> > sound (using the same driver 6sn7gtb ac coupled. Maybe the Zin
should
> > be higher (now 100K)? The operating point is: B+ 500V, 85 mA,
Rk=1K
> > (85V).
> >
>
> What are you using for output transformers? Coupling cap? Cathode
> bypass caps? 6SN7GTB operating point?
>
Hi Roscoe,
I use a 2K5 sati opt, the coupling caps are paper in oil from Jensen
(dk).
Driver Sylvania 6sn7gtb: 1. stage Ra=22K and Rc=1K. 2.stage Ra=16.5K
(2*33k//), Rc=470 Ohm bypassed with 100 microF and a poly cap. The
300B: is bypassed with 47 microF. and a 330 nF poly cap.
The driverstage is also running at B+ 500V, 1. stage 9.6mA, 2.stage
14.4mA
=========================================================================
From: "Koridon, Ronald" <gc201@civility.amsterdam.nl>
Subject: RE: 300B questions
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:41:24 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n264
Your description is typical for the sound of the Sovtek 300B, I neither
do like the sound of the Sovtek 300B, it sounds as MOS-FET. Carbonized
plate 300B's from China come very close to the original WE nowadays. So
try an AudioNote chinees 300B or an Valve-art 300B C60.
Kind Regards,
Ronald Koridon
Amsterdam
> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: Sune Frost-Olsen [SMTP:sune@post5.tele.dk]
> Verzonden: dinsdag 28 april 1998 21:08
> Aan: SPmaillist
> Onderwerp: 300B questions
>
> Hey out there,
>
> I have now for some days a Sovtek300B se amp up and running. But the
> 300B's have a blue light glowing from them - is that air or what...?
> is that to worry about?
>
> Another thing is that the sound is in my ears quiet "dry" - is that
> normal? My first breadboard amp R120 was more soft and sweet in the
> sound (using the same driver 6sn7gtb ac coupled. Maybe the Zin should
> be higher (now 100K)? The operating point is: B+ 500V, 85 mA, Rk=1K
> (85V).
>
>
> Cheers,
> Sune
> sune@post5.tele.dk
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: 300B questions
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 21:25:44 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n269
At 16:56 28-4-98 -0400, Roscoe Primrose wrote:
>Sune Frost-Olsen wrote:
>
>> Hey out there,
>>
>> I have now for some days a Sovtek300B se amp up and running. But the
>> 300B's have a blue light glowing from them - is that air or what...?
>> is that to worry about?
>>
>
>No, that's normal. It's actually from electrons hitting the inside of
>the glass.
To my opinion these electrons (that come outside the anode, where they are
supposed to be) hit ions that are not pumped out
Guido
P.S. More or less every tube sounds different, so 300b Sovtek differs from
R120 too
>> Another thing is that the sound is in my ears quiet "dry" - is that
>> normal? My first breadboard amp R120 was more soft and sweet in the
>> sound (using the same driver 6sn7gtb ac coupled. Maybe the Zin should
>> be higher (now 100K)? The operating point is: B+ 500V, 85 mA, Rk=1K
>> (85V).
>>
>
>What are you using for output transformers? Coupling cap? Cathode
>bypass caps? 6SN7GTB operating point?
>
>> Cheers,
>> Sune
>> sune@post5.tele.dk
>
>
>
>--
>Roscoe Primrose -- mailto:roscoe@aiko.com -- http://www.aiko.com/roscoe
>
>
>"Once in a while you get shown the light
>In the strangest of places if you look at it right." Robert Hunter
>
>"640K ought to be enough for anybody" , Bill Gates, 1981
>
>
>
=========================================================================
From: jc morrison <jcm@eclipse.net>
Subject: Re: 300B questions -Reply
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 23:14:47 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n264
hey,
a big myth about the 300B is that it has an inherently "warm" character.
with a really linear low impedance (for the grid to plate capacity of a
300B) driver, the basic quality is punchy, tight and a little crass.
"rock the house" is a good metaphor, i think. the older westerns,
particularly the "A"s, are warmer, but not much. it reminds me of
transmitting tubes more than anything else. the current issue westerns
are also like this, as are the sovteks. the chinese tubes are much
softer, by the way. i have built my share of amps and this was my
experience. take that however you want to. i don't believe this means
that one should go running for a soft and fuzzy, high z driver stage
(ala 6SL7, 6SJ7, etc.), a failure mechanism designed in to an amp in
order to tone control... no! tube character is a subtle thing, not a
make or break thing. it is a question of design with taste.
most tubes have "character" (a "failing" of sorts, an unfortunate choice
of terms, i know), a combination of the materials used, the geometry and
scale of the tube, the quality of the vacuum or lack thereof, the
quality of the cathode emission, etc... all in an episotic combination.
with the possible exception being the we 437, which to my ears is the
ultimate as it has almost no "character", knowing which way a tube leans
is the first step in becoming a better designer. having a sense of tube
character and knowing your options: clever choice of driver topology,
tube compliment, and operating point are all tools for this. this is why
better designers are also likely to be good cooks!
jc
=========================================================================
From: RALPH POWER <POWER.RALPH@epamail.epa.gov>
Subject: Re: 300B questions -Reply
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 08:23:07 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n264
Hi Sune,
You said :
> Another thing is that the sound is in my ears quiet "dry" - is that normal?
>Driver Sylvania 6sn7gtb: 1. stage Ra=22K and Rc=1K. 2.stage Ra=16.5K
>(2*33k//), Rc=470 Ohm bypassed with 100 microF and a poly cap. The
>300B: is bypassed with 47 microF. and a 330 nF poly cap.
I used a poly bypass cap in parallel with an electrolytic on my Audio Note 300B cathode
bypass in my Kit One a while back and had the same sound you describe.
I removed the poly bypass and it fixed the problem. Much smoother.
Try it and see if that will help you. Also Black Gates and Cerefines lytics seem to have
much less of that etched quality too.
Also try it on the 6SN7 too.
My 2 cents,
- Ralph
=========================================================================
From: bill gardner <wg44929@navix.net>
Subject: Re: 300B questions -Reply
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:00:36 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n264
At 11:14 PM 4/28/98 -0700, jc morrison wrote:
>hey,
\
this is why
>better designers are also likely to be good cooks!
>jc
Yes sir buddy , I never sampled JCs cooking , but I have his line stage and
845 amps, and I would bet big bucks, his skills in the kitchen, are as they
say on the left coast, BITCHEN!!!
Bill Gardner
=========================================================================
From: Richard C Nevill <rnevill@is.dal.ca>
Subject: 300B's
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:41:22 -0400 (AST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n192
Just got a new Music Direct catalog today ( 1-312-433-0200 phone,
1-312-433-0011 fax, www.amusicdirect.com) and they have Sovtek 300B's
for US$89.99 each. Don't know if this is a good price or not but I've had
very good service from them ordering other stuff (and they have a good
selection of lps to boot).
FYI guys, not associated with these people etc.
Cheers
Richard Nevill
=========================================================================
From: "Owen Young" <oyoung@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: 300B's
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 15:40:50 -1200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n193
Richard,
New Sensor corp had good prices for Sovteks, www.sovtek.com
Sorry can't accurately recall exact figures.
Owen
Owen Young
Auckland, New Zealand
oyoung@clear.net.nz
=========================================================================
From: "blackie" <blackie@mail.infohouse.com>
Subject: 300B's again
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 05:06:42 +0000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n490
Ahhh the joelist
Half my posts never make it up...guess I gotta start saving copies
for second tries...
Thanks to all who helped w/ the PP 6B4G ideas a couple weeeks ago...I
have decided to go with 300B's instead, natch.
Got some Tango iron from Steve, ohmygod the specs are outrageous. If
the amp sounds like krap, it won't be Tango's fault...these things
are the tits...
Any suggestions on 300B's? The contenders are:
1. Svetlana @ $140 a pop
2. JJ/Tesla @ $83 a go
3. Some killer LOOKING Chinese, black matte plates, probably Valve
Arts/Golden Dragqueen @ $83 clams
The Sovteks are down to $50 (!) but they give me the creeps...but
I'll consider 'em if they are any good...
thanks
=========================================================================
From: Grover Gardner <groverg@postoffice.att.net>
Subject: Re: 300B's again
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 10:51:14 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n490
At 5:06 AM +0000 11/14/98, blackie wrote:
>Ahhh the joelist
>
>Half my posts never make it up...guess I gotta start saving copies
>for second tries...
>
>Thanks to all who helped w/ the PP 6B4G ideas a couple weeeks ago...I
>have decided to go with 300B's instead, natch.
>
>Got some Tango iron from Steve, ohmygod the specs are outrageous. If
>the amp sounds like krap, it won't be Tango's fault...these things
>are the tits...
>
>Any suggestions on 300B's? The contenders are:
>
>1. Svetlana @ $140 a pop
>2. JJ/Tesla @ $83 a go
>3. Some killer LOOKING Chinese, black matte plates, probably Valve
>Arts/Golden Dragqueen @ $83 clams
>
>The Sovteks are down to $50 (!) but they give me the creeps...but
>I'll consider 'em if they are any good...
>
>thanks
I think the Svetlanas are pretty nice, more tube for the money than I would
have thought. I confess, though, that I am also curious about the Teslas,
and would like to try them out. The price is right... The Svets have a
textured, bandwidth-y sound, much better than any of the Chinese versions
I've used.
I haven't tried the Valve Arts 300B types, only the 5300, which is a darned
good tube, but for PP you probably don't want to run that much current. I
think those graphite-plate versions are pretty neat and I'd be curious to
try some of them too.
Grover Gardner
groverg@postoffice.att.net
=========================================================================
From: "blackie" <blackie@mail.infohouse.com>
Subject: Re: 300B's again
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 13:24:58 +0000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n491
> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 09:01:58 -0800
> From: Ed Fallon <efalon@wolfenet.com>
> To: blackie <blackie@mail.infohouse.com>
> Subject: Re: 300B's again
> How about the new Valve Art nickel plate 300B's from Angela at $144pr?
I saw a VA w/ matte silver plates, didn't look like the old shiny
nickel, they are $93 bucks at Sensor. I wonder if these are them?
(sic)
Anyway, from the gist of the pitch, I could tell there were
returns...
people who ask for this tube, the higher the price will
be...that's Mike...
=========================================================================
From: "blackie" <blackie@mail.infohouse.com>
Subject: Re: 300B's again
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 13:33:33 +0000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n491
> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 10:51:14 -0600
> To: "blackie" <blackie@mail.infohouse.com>, sound@deliverator.io.com
> From: Grover Gardner <groverg@postoffice.att.net>
> Subject: Re: 300B's again
> I haven't tried the Valve Arts 300B types, only the 5300, which is a darned
> good tube, but for PP you probably don't want to run that much current. I
> think those graphite-plate versions are pretty neat and I'd be curious to
> try some of them too.
Hmmmm I'll probably go class A, what are these 5300's spec? BTW the
Chinese tube I was looking at was cataloged as a "4300", and the
silver matte one was "4300BLX" God I hate marketing...
Hey, buy my expensive tube, it bites the wad but maybe if I call it
the XYZ86gazillion super doodah PLUS, you won't notice...:)
=========================================================================
From: Grover Gardner <groverg@postoffice.att.net>
Subject: Re: 300B's again
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 10:01:54 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n491
At 1:33 PM +0000 11/14/98, blackie wrote:
>> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 10:51:14 -0600
>> To: "blackie" <blackie@mail.infohouse.com>,
>>sound@deliverator.io.com
>> From: Grover Gardner <groverg@postoffice.att.net>
>> Subject: Re: 300B's again
>
>
>> I haven't tried the Valve Arts 300B types, only the 5300, which is a darned
>> good tube, but for PP you probably don't want to run that much current. I
>> think those graphite-plate versions are pretty neat and I'd be curious to
>> try some of them too.
>
>Hmmmm I'll probably go class A, what are these 5300's spec? BTW the
>Chinese tube I was looking at was cataloged as a "4300", and the
>silver matte one was "4300BLX" God I hate marketing...
The 5300 seem to be similar to the old VV32. I've been running them at 400
Vp, 120mA for about 13-15 watts with good results. Maybe Angela has some
more information now on their web site...
The Valve Arts graphite plate tubes are kinda cool--cleaner on top, less
microphonic, warmer in some ways, not unlike an 845. I think they're
pretty cool.
Grover Gardner
groverg@postoffice.att.net
=========================================================================
From: STEVE CORNETT <SCORNETT@usagroup.com>
Subject: RE-300B's Again
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 08:16:25 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n494
Hey, Don,
Where did you order your J.J. 300B's from, and how much were they.
Might like to try a pair in my Angela 91's. Currently using Valve Arts.
Steve C.
=========================================================================
From: "blackie" <blackie@mail.infohouse.com>
Subject: Re: 300B's again
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 06:38:20 +0000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n495
> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 07:28:17 -1000 (HST)
> To: "blackie" <blackie@mail.infohouse.com>
> From: "Karlton W. Kam" <kkam@pixi.com>
> Subject: Re: 300B's again
> Hi Blackie,
>
> Just wanted to know where you found the JJ/Tesla Tubes for only $83 each?
Losconi quoted me $75 each direct plus shipping, which brought 'em to
$83...but you gotta deal w/ Austria...
I don't know if this price is retail, I am a wholesale customer.
Ned at Triode and Steve at Angela have 'em for around $200/pr in the
USA...
=========================================================================
From: "blackie" <blackie@mail.infohouse.com>
Subject: Re: 300B's again
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 06:38:58 +0000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n495
> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 07:28:17 -1000 (HST)
> To: "blackie" <blackie@mail.infohouse.com>
> From: "Karlton W. Kam" <kkam@pixi.com>
> Subject: Re: 300B's again
> Hi Blackie,
>
> Just wanted to know where you found the JJ/Tesla Tubes for only $83 each?
Losconi quoted me $75 each direct plus shipping, which brought 'em to
$83...but you gotta deal w/ Austria...
I don't know if this price is retail, I am a wholesale customer.
Ned at Triode and Steve at Angela have 'em for around $200/pr in the
USA...
=========================================================================
From: trs@carlsmith.com
Subject: Re: 300B's again -Reply
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 11:23:31 -1000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n493
FWIW, the VV300s that Welborne Labs has on sale sound
way better than the stock Chinese 300Bs in the Audionote
Kit One circuit - way more bass as well as overall more of
the sound people buy this stuff for in the first place. But
people I mention this to say there's been cases of filament
problems and premature failures with this brand. Anyone
have first-hand experiences to pass on?
Thanks, Tom Sylvester trs@carlsmith.com
>>> "blackie@mail.infohouse.com" 11/14/98 09:17am >>>
> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 10:51:14 -0600
> To: "blackie" <blackie@mail.infohouse.com>,
sound@deliverator.io.com
> From: Grover Gardner <groverg@postoffice.att.net>
> Subject: Re: 300B's again
> I haven't tried the Valve Arts 300B types, only the 5300,
which is a darned
> good tube, but for PP you probably don't want to run that
much current. I
> think those graphite-plate versions are pretty neat and I'd
be curious to
> try some of them too.
Hmmmm I'll probably go class A, what are these 5300's
spec? BTW the
Chinese tube I was looking at was cataloged as a "4300",
and the
silver matte one was "4300BLX" God I hate marketing...
Hey, buy my expensive tube, it bites the wad but maybe if I
call it
the XYZ86gazillion super doodah PLUS, you won't notice...:)
=========================================================================
From: Owen Young <oyoung@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: 300B's again -Reply
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:58:09 +1300
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n493
trs@carlsmith.com wrote:
> FWIW, the VV300s that Welborne Labs has on sale sound
> way better than the stock Chinese 300Bs in the Audionote
> Kit One circuit
Has anyone noted Steve Rochlin's article on his site...?
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/newhome.htm
Steve Rochlin has a
comparison review of several 300Bs incl WE300B & Chinese Valve
Art types & Slovak 300B
Cheers
Owen
=========================================================================
From: Don Turner <dturner@alaska.net>
Subject: RE-300B's Again --Reply
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 00:42:49 -0900
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n494
I've had my J.J. (Tesla) 300B's in my Angela 91 amps for several months
now and I'm quite happy with them driving my Quad ESL 63's above 110Hz in a
biamped system. I previously used Angela's cheap chinese Jolida tubes,
followed by Sovteks. The Teslas sound quite a bit better to these 60yo
ears. I was tickled to see that Steve rated them tops (over WE and KR) in
his recent website review. They're relatively cheap, and they look pretty too.
Cheers, Don
=========================================================================
From: Bob Chernofsky <bobc@cwix.com>
Subject: Re: RE-300B's Again --Reply
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:45:37 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n494
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Don Turner <dturner@alaska.net>
>To: sound@deliverator.io.com <sound@deliverator.io.com>
>Date: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 5:08 AM
>Subject: RE-300B's Again --Reply
>
>
>>I've had my J.J. (Tesla) 300B's in my Angela 91 amps for several months
>>now and I'm quite happy with them driving my Quad ESL 63's above 110Hz in
a
>>biamped system. I previously used Angela's cheap chinese Jolida tubes,
>>followed by Sovteks. The Teslas sound quite a bit better to these 60yo
>>ears. I was tickled to see that Steve rated them tops (over WE and KR) in
>>his recent website review. They're relatively cheap, and they look pretty
>too.
>> Cheers, Don
>
>
>I have been using the Svetlana 300B and I am very happy with them. They are
>very close sonically to my WE 300Bs. I think when Steve R. gets the
Svetlana
>they will also get an excellent review.
>Bob
>
=========================================================================
From: "Alfia Mak" <alfiamak@hkstar.com>
Subject: Re: 300B's again -Reply
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 20:52:47 +0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n494
I have a pair of VV30B and VV300B blue glass for 2 years already without any
problem at all.
- -----Original Message-----
From: trs@carlsmith.com <trs@carlsmith.com>
To: groverg@postoffice.att.net <groverg@postoffice.att.net>;
blackie@mail.infohouse.com <blackie@mail.infohouse.com>
Cc: sound@deliverator.io.com <sound@deliverator.io.com>
Date: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 6:03 AM
Subject: Re: 300B's again -Reply
>FWIW, the VV300s that Welborne Labs has on sale sound
>way better than the stock Chinese 300Bs in the Audionote
>Kit One circuit - way more bass as well as overall more of
>the sound people buy this stuff for in the first place. But
>people I mention this to say there's been cases of filament
>problems and premature failures with this brand. Anyone
>have first-hand experiences to pass on?
>Thanks, Tom Sylvester trs@carlsmith.com
>
>>>> "blackie@mail.infohouse.com" 11/14/98 09:17am >>>
>> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 10:51:14 -0600
>> To: "blackie" <blackie@mail.infohouse.com>,
>sound@deliverator.io.com
>> From: Grover Gardner <groverg@postoffice.att.net>
>> Subject: Re: 300B's again
>
>
>> I haven't tried the Valve Arts 300B types, only the 5300,
>which is a darned
>> good tube, but for PP you probably don't want to run that
>much current. I
>> think those graphite-plate versions are pretty neat and I'd
>be curious to
>> try some of them too.
>
>Hmmmm I'll probably go class A, what are these 5300's
>spec? BTW the
>Chinese tube I was looking at was cataloged as a "4300",
>and the
>silver matte one was "4300BLX" God I hate marketing...
>
>Hey, buy my expensive tube, it bites the wad but maybe if I
>call it
>the XYZ86gazillion super doodah PLUS, you won't notice...:)
>
>
>
>
>
=========================================================================
From: Grover Gardner <groverg@bellatlantic.net>
Subject: 300Bs for sale
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 23:29:05 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n093
I'm selling two pairs of 300Bs:
Golden Dragon Super, matched, about 200 hrs. use--$200/pair
Jolida Chinese unmatched, hardly used, $75/pair
Contact me privately by e-mail. Thanks.
Grover Gardner
groverg@bellatlantic.net
=========================================================================
From: andre@indigo.ie (Andre Jute)
Subject: 300B types, was "My first tube amp project !"
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 05:38:50 +0100 (BST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n013
>
>To:Guido Tent <gtent@ehv.sc.philips.com>
>From:andre@indigo.ie (Andre Jute)
>Subject:300B types, was "My first tube amp project !"
>
>Guido writes:
>
>>Andre,
>>
>>I agree upon your comments, but have one remark:
>>
>>>The 1480USD Miyabe, for instance, includes four 300B
>>>that are apparently cheap Chinese, but they are matched to within a couple
>>>of per cent by some truly obsessed person, so that if you buy them from a
>>>premium valve supplier like Golden Dragon you'd probably pay seven or eight
>>>hundred bucks just for the power tubes.
>>
>>This is true, but, once you have a decent design with a 300b it is
>>definitely worth trying the Golden Dragons (the titaniums are suberb)
>>instead of the cheap Chinese ones (Jolida or whatever). The difference in
>>sound is beyond discription
>>
>>Guido
>
>Guido
>
>While everyone else was at the Bottlehead Bop, I consoled myself by making
>a comparison of 300B types in one of the prototypes of my MAS. Results:
>
>1. Generic Chinese. Yawn. But only in comparison with better tubes, below.
>In comparison with other good tubes, even cheap Chinese are a
>demonstration of why the 300B is so well loved. I also have the same
>circuit modified to take 2A3 and concluded that unless your speakers are
>at least 100dB/W/m you're better off with the extra power of the 300B.
>
>2. Silvertones. Better but only because mine were nicely matched by Mr
>EIFL, and another lot nicely matched by Billington in England. Unmatched
>they are not much better though the 90 day guarantee most vendors give
>with a "branded" name may be worth something.
>
>The next three are equal faves, each good for a different sort of listening:
>
>3. Unbranded Chinese, matched by some truly obsessed person at Triode
>Supply Japan. Brilliant. Makes me wonder quite the opposite of what you
>conclude from the same facts (you are right, the GD titaniums are
>incisive, if that's what turns you on; I didn't have a set to hand to
>include in this test), whether the everyday active enthusiast would not be
>better off spending the same money on a tester and a dozen cheap Chinese
>and making up his own sets, so that opportunities for finetuning arise.
>*Wealth warning:* I have not tried this, and four or five years ago Peter
>Qvortrup told me that when he tried it, it was expensive because whole
>batches of tubes turned out to be bad and were unsaleable and
>unreturnable. But presumably Chinese quality control has improved in the
>years since. Make sure bad tubes are returnable before you buy lots!
>
>4. WE-300B, new production. A superbly balanced tube. Wonderfully liquid
>midrange, seamless transition into bass, of which there is enough,
>distinguished treble to beyond the range of my ears. Makes even
>supermatched good Chinese sound slightly bland. This is the classic sound,
>and if you know precisely how much power you want, and you have the money,
>you need look no further. What I like about it is that the sound is not at
>all audiophile (by which I mean that nasty American studio-type sound,
>personified by the Audiolab--Krell axis, which disintegrates the music
>into separate components) but fully integrated and unified and that
>therefore this valve has all the longterm livability and satisfaction of
>Quad electrostats.
>
>5. KR VV300B. A much punchier tube, especially at the low end, greater
>measured treble extension though subjectively (to me) it is the better
>bass that impresses more. But, as others here know, I think too much
>concentration on the bass can ruin the balance of an amp. This tube gets
>away with it, in my circuit, by balancing up the bass with mo' treble, so
>to speak, so that the midrange is subjectively still in balance. If you
>want more power than Chinese or WE without going PSE, one of the KR VV's
>will do the business. The 300B is the base of the KR VV line; other KR VV
>are just more of the same, with bigger power outputs, up to damn nearly
>30W for the VV52.
>
>I conclude from this that in Chinese 300B killer matching is essential,
>that the WE is the music lover's lonterm fave, and that the more
>self-consciously audiophile types with a 300B chassis and output trx that
>can handle more current should look closely at the KR range even if more
>power isn't their primary concern.
>
>All this is of course in my opinion. I *play music* fourteen hours a day.
>Someone who *listens to his amp* for an hour a day (before getting out the
>soldering iron?) would probably find the standard Chinese bland, the WE of
>historic interest, the GD titanium more to their taste, and insist that
>the mucho money for the most expensive KR VV52 is most deservedly well
>spent.
>
>For newbies: note that mine is by no means an exhaustive list of 300B
>types. I just tested what I have lying around. Various premium selectors
>put their own brand on Chinese 300B; of these Gold Dragon is the best
>known. There are, as Guido notes, more than one type of Chinese 300B.
>There is also a Russian 300B branded Svetlana for English-speaking
>consumption, and a Yugoslav 300B made at the Slovakian Tesla factory and
>designed by the same Vaic who designed the KR valves--this is the one
>Audio Note UK brands as their own but it will probably be a lot cheaper
>through reliable dealers like Losconi in Vienna (address on my netsite).
>Others on the Joelist can fill out the brands I have missed out.
>
>Newbies might also be interested in knowing that only the WE is really a
>300B. None of the others is an exact copy. The Chinese and Russian are
>merely approximations, and the KR VV are frankly new designs intended to
>plug into 300B circuits, and ditto for the Teslovak VV. If you are
>interested, ask the technically minded folk on the list to explain what
>proprietary features distinguish the WE from the Chinese and Russian
>copies, and from the emulators.
>
>Personally, I don't think the technical, construction differences matter
>one blue goddamn: once you understand that a 300B of any type for the same
>hassle in development and investment of cash is more likely to make a
>better sounding amp than almost anything else except god's own valve, the
>845*, each of these 300B types have their own place, by right of
>existence, in a budget/sound-quality continuum. We're better off for
>having the choice.
>
>Andre
>*delighted to hear the Bottlehead Bop with Grego's assistance concluded
>the same thing I have been saying for years--now you should try the 845 at
>a kilovolt and a bit!
>
Andre Jute
andre@indigo.ie
Communication Jute
the main index to the pages we support for lovers of classical music, for
writers, and for audiophiles is at
http://www.foundmark.com/ComJute/ComJuteF1.html
=========================================================================
From: alan cameron <alan@thehub.com.au>
Subject: Re: 300B types, was "My first tube amp project !"
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 03:26:41 +1000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n019
Also sprach Andre Jute, aus 6/9/97:
<snip>
> >I conclude from this that in Chinese 300B killer matching is essential,
> >that the WE is the music lover's lonterm fave, and that the more
> >self-consciously audiophile types with a 300B chassis and output trx that
> >can handle more current should look closely at the KR range even if more
> >power isn't their primary concern.
<another snip, included IMHO duly noted>
Andre
Please take this in the spirit of enquiry seeking enlightenment; I can
understand how closely matched pairs are relevant to PP amps, and how
choosing a valve having curves closest to spec (or closest to what the amp
was designed for) can help in an SE amp, but how is *superb* matching
relevant to the sound of an SE amp?
All of the kindy level books on valve design seem to list this as a big
plus for SE vs PP; the difficulty of obtaining identical samples of your
output valves, and even if you do, the improbablility of them staying that
way; prevents PP from fully utilising the symmetry that theoretically
eliminates even order harmonics. I would have thought in
SE that the only possible effect would be on channel balance (for those of
us in stereo).
Am i missing something here?
alan
=========================================================================
From: el34@juno.com
Subject: Re: 300B types, was "My first tube amp project !"
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 22:49:02 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n019
On Sun, 7 Sep 1997 03:26:41 +1000 alan cameron <alan@thehub.com.au>
writes:
> how is *superb* matching
>relevant to the sound of an SE amp?
> I would have thought in
>SE that the only possible effect would be on channel balance (for
>those of
>us in stereo).
>Am i missing something here?
>alan
It will make a BIG difference in imaging for instance. I have tried this
myself and it does make a diffrence, the sound just seems to be more
focused.
You have to keep an open mind and forget the text books in a lot of
cases. The books were written by guys who never bothered to actually
LISTEN to the stuff they wrote about.
=========================================================================
From: andre@indigo.ie (Andre Jute)
Subject: Re: 300B types, was "My first tube amp project !"
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 07:47:42 +0100 (BST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n019
>Also sprach Andre Jute, aus 6/9/97:
>
>
><snip>
>> >I conclude from this that in Chinese 300B killer matching is essential,
>> >that the WE is the music lover's lonterm fave, and that the more
>> >self-consciously audiophile types with a 300B chassis and output trx that
>> >can handle more current should look closely at the KR range even if more
>> >power isn't their primary concern.
>
><another snip, included IMHO duly noted>
>
>Andre
>Please take this in the spirit of enquiry seeking enlightenment; I can
>understand how closely matched pairs are relevant to PP amps, and how
>choosing a valve having curves closest to spec (or closest to what the amp
>was designed for) can help in an SE amp, but how is *superb* matching
>relevant to the sound of an SE amp?
>All of the kindy level books on valve design seem to list this as a big
>plus for SE vs PP; the difficulty of obtaining identical samples of your
>output valves, and even if you do, the improbablility of them staying that
>way; prevents PP from fully utilising the symmetry that theoretically
>eliminates even order harmonics. I would have thought in
>SE that the only possible effect would be on channel balance (for those of
>us in stereo).
>Am i missing something here?
>alan
Yo, Alan:
Maybe I wasn't full enough in my description. I tested the tubes in both SE
and PSE amps (of otherwise the same construction-- upgradeable modular
prototypes). In PSE matched valves are electrically at least very desirable
and sonically, in my opinion, essential for a real high-end amp. My point
is really that if you buy cheap valves paying a few bucks extra for really
good matching can make some of their shortcomings less noticeable. The WEs
come with individual cards containing the curves of each valve and other
matching information; KR claim that their production control is such that
matching is unnecessary.
Andre
Andre Jute
andre@indigo.ie
Communication Jute
the main index to the pages we support for lovers of classical music, for
writers, and for audiophiles is at
http://www.foundmark.com/ComJute/ComJuteF1.html
=========================================================================
From: el34@juno.com (Joseph E Lowe)
Subject: Re: 300B types, was "My first tube amp project !"
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:11:13 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n020
> KR claim that their production control is such that matching is
unnecessary.
Their production control is so good that their tubes NEVER, EVER go gassy
either. ;-)
=========================================================================
From: andre@indigo.ie (Andre Jute)
Subject: Re: 300B types, was "My first tube amp project !"
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 02:54:37 +0100 (BST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n021
Guido wants to know:
> I do not have experience with the new WE. How do they relate to
>the original ones ?
I haven't tested them back to back. Ask Reid Welch or Gordon Rankin; they
have written here before about the various early types; they were
apparently not all the same.
Andre
Andre Jute
andre@indigo.ie
Communication Jute
the main index to the pages we support for lovers of classical music, for
writers, and for audiophiles is at
http://www.foundmark.com/ComJute/ComJuteF1.html
=========================================================================
From: pitaro@ozemail.com.au
Subject: Re: 300B types, was "My first tube amp project !"
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:02:04 EST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n021
** Reply to note from andre@indigo.ie (Andre Jute) Thu, 11 Sep 1997 07:47:42 +0100 (BST)
> Maybe I wasn't full enough in my description. I tested the tubes in both SE
> and PSE amps (of otherwise the same construction-- upgradeable modular
> prototypes). In PSE matched valves are electrically at least very desirable
> and sonically, in my opinion, essential for a real high-end amp. My point
> is really that if you buy cheap valves paying a few bucks extra for really
> good matching can make some of their shortcomings less noticeable. The WEs
> come with individual cards containing the curves of each valve and other
> matching information; KR claim that their production control is such that
> matching is unnecessary.
I was told the other day that even if you match the tubes perfectly when
new, this is of no importance because they then age at different rates.
Even with as little as 200 hours on a tube, apparently the emission varies
between tubes forcing one to play with balance knobs or volume controls
depending on setup.
Regards,
Harry Pitaro
+-----------------------+---------------------------------------------+
| Melbourne, Australia | A good discussion is like a miniskirt; |
| | Short enough to retain interest |
| pitaro@ozemail.com.au | and long enough to cover the subject. |
+-----------------------+---------------------------------------------+
=========================================================================
From: andre@indigo.ie (Andre Jute)
Subject: Re: 300B types, was "My first tube amp project !"
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 00:53:21 +0100 (BST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n022
Harry
I've heard so many numbers quoted about how long tubes hold their spec, I
just gave up bothering. I don't have any 300B with huge hours on them, but
I had some EL34 with 10K hours or more that went to an indigent
acquaintance on an amp that was in my way and he said they had drifted less
than 5%, which is nothing since generally you're lucky if the things are
matched to within 10% when new. Also, a client who keeps one of my
choke-coupled 300B running night and day (he's an engineer and believes
valves take "several hours" to reach "thermal equilibrium") in his office,
must have have had 5K hours at least on GD tubes when they were replaced
with WE, and on test they proved to have drifted a little but were even
closer matched than when new. Go figure.
As with wire and connectors, the truth is probably that you need a very
high definition amp before matching becomes critical (another way of saying
everything must be in balance), though imaging, which someone else
mentioned here as a benefit of matching even in SE, is not exactly a subtle
effect if you got halfway decent speakers. I tried wildly mismatched 300B
(from separate matched pairs) in an SE amp after I read that post and
confirmed what he said. When I put the matched pair back in, the stage did
stretch, and depth-definition was enhanced. I didn't report this
five-minute "test" here because this Joe already made the point.
It was suggested in one of the consumer hifi magazines some years ago that
you can make valves wear more equally by occasionally swapping them about
between the sockets on the amp. Never tried it.
Andre
At 12:02 pm 12/9/97, pitaro@ozemail.com.au wrote:
>** Reply to note from andre@indigo.ie (Andre Jute) Thu, 11 Sep 1997
>07:47:42 +0100 (BST)
>
>> Maybe I wasn't full enough in my description. I tested the tubes in both SE
>> and PSE amps (of otherwise the same construction-- upgradeable modular
>> prototypes). In PSE matched valves are electrically at least very desirable
>> and sonically, in my opinion, essential for a real high-end amp. My point
>> is really that if you buy cheap valves paying a few bucks extra for really
>> good matching can make some of their shortcomings less noticeable. The WEs
>> come with individual cards containing the curves of each valve and other
>> matching information; KR claim that their production control is such that
>> matching is unnecessary.
>
>I was told the other day that even if you match the tubes perfectly when
>new, this is of no importance because they then age at different rates.
>Even with as little as 200 hours on a tube, apparently the emission varies
>between tubes forcing one to play with balance knobs or volume controls
>depending on setup.
>
>
>Regards,
>Harry Pitaro
>+-----------------------+---------------------------------------------+
>| Melbourne, Australia | A good discussion is like a miniskirt; |
>| | Short enough to retain interest |
>| pitaro@ozemail.com.au | and long enough to cover the subject. |
>+-----------------------+---------------------------------------------+
Andre Jute
andre@indigo.ie
Communication Jute
the main index to the pages we support for lovers of classical music, for
writers, and for audiophiles is at
http://www.foundmark.com/ComJute/ComJuteF1.html
=========================================================================
From: davidbarnett@aristotle.net (David Barnett)
Subject: Re: 301 plinth plans
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 08:45:05 GMT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n497
On Fri, 20 Nov 1998 13:26:48 +1000, "Ian McPhail"
<i.mcphail@rmit.EDU.AU> wrote:
>Martin Basin who sells the Maxplank plinth ...
"Maxplank?" That's rich! Maybe the next version will be called the
"Enricofermi?"
- --dnb
=========================================================================
From: "Ian McPhail" <i.mcphail@rmit.EDU.AU>
Subject: 301 plinth plans
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 13:26:48 +1000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n497
Hey Joes, scared by freight costs on monster plinths from the UK?
Martin Basin who sells the Maxplank plinth for 301/401
(8 layers of 18mm ply and/or MDF, 50kg) used to sell the plans try
contacting him at:
Martin Bastin
225 Tettanhall Rd
Wolverhampton WV6 0DE
West Midlands
UK
Used with Nottingham Analogue (UK) The Foot 12" arm,
SME 3012, 312 (12") or their 9" arms
regards Ian
Ian McPhail i.mcphail@rmit.edu.au
RMIT Chem and Met Eng Dept 110
GPO Box 2476V
Melbourne 3001
Australia
tel +61 3 9925 2408
fax +61 3 9925 3746
=========================================================================
From: bill gardner <wg44929@navix.net>
Subject: 301 & td 124
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 12:31:10 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n399
Hi All : Located a hammer tone 301 in Denver . The guy is tough to deal
with , he won't commit to a price for the thing .... he sez Make me an
offer .... ok some where between a dollar and 10 grand ? What's a realistic
dollar amount ..... is a 301 as good or better than say a td 124 .Any help
is really appreciated .
thanks and best Bill Gardner
=========================================================================
From: Hartmut <Hartmut.Quaschik@mch.sni.de>
Subject: Re: 301 & td 124
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:11:29 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n400
bill gardner wrote:
>
> Hi All : Located a hammer tone 301 in Denver . The guy is tough to deal
> with , he won't commit to a price for the thing .... he sez Make me an
> offer .... ok some where between a dollar and 10 grand ? What's a realistic
> dollar amount ..... is a 301 as good or better than say a td 124 .Any help
Bill,
yes it is better than a 124, it has lot more energy in the bass, but
treble is not as fine.
depending on condition a grey 301 is worth in England 200 to 300 UKP,
that is 300 to 500 USD, so in a local deal I would offer 150-200 USD.
Just try it.
much luck,
Hartmut from Munich
=========================================================================
From: Joe Roberts <jroberts@io.com>
Subject: Re: 301 & td 124
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:46:26 -0500 (CDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n400
Gordon: You're nuts-- I'd have to say that the 301 smokes the 124. The 124
is pretty good and I'm trying to set one up as a second table (once I get
my first table set up) but the 301 is way better, especially on the low
end. Of course, after a few beers, who cares? Joe
On Mon, 24 Aug 1998, J. Gordon Rankin wrote:
> >is a 301 as good or better than say a td 124
>
> Bill,
>
> I so much more think that the 124 is better. Much better noise factor and
> still has the bass and midrange to kill for. There was much discussion on
> this in HIFI World a little over a year ago and the 124 came out on top.
> Also Thorens has all the replacement parts you would ever want for those
> things.
>
> Gordon
>
>
>
> =======> Wavelength Audio <=======
> mailto:waudio@cinti.net
> http://www.wavelengthaudio.com
> ph.fx. 513-271-4186 USA
>
=========================================================================
From: Douglas Purl <dcp@selway.umt.edu>
Subject: Re: 301 & td 124
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 13:33:35 -0600 (MDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n400
Back when I was horsing around with tonearms, we had trouble with rumble
in the 124 series. WE had a powerful bass system to work with, and the
Thorens rumbled and rumbled. We carved up the top plate of some A.
Doug Purl
=========================================================================
From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Torbj=F8rn_Lien?=" <mdrivekl@online.no>
Subject: Re: 301 & td 124
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:43:16 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n400
Hello...
J. Gordon Rankin <waudio@cinti.net> wrote:
> I so much more think that the 124 is better. Much better noise factor
and
> still has the bass and midrange to kill for. There was much
discussion on
> this in HIFI World a little over a year ago and the 124
came out on top.
> Also Thorens has all the replacement parts you would ever want for
those
> things.
>
> Gordon
Hmm,-reminds me.Haven't played any vinyl lately since one of my
dipole-projects suddenly decided to fall right on top of
my recordplayer.And completely wrecked a nice SME 12"'er...
So, after nearly a year, I've develloped a subtle vinyl-related
depression..
But I have infact also a Td-124 stashed away somewere in one of my
piles marked "recycling". Might be a good idea then to get it up and
run....yes, and I have this tonearm,- a Rega,-,-..something.(The one
with the wolfram counter-weight) Opinions on matching/mismatching with
such a setup?
Now, if someone could guide me to this source for replacements
parts,-infact,- any tip from 124-users would come in handy: guidance
,modifications , what to do/not to, what to look for, how to detect /
avoid excessive wear etc.
Regards,
:TL
=========================================================================
From: "J. Gordon Rankin" <waudio@cinti.net>
Subject: Re: 301 & td 124
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 98 09:59:21 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n400
>is a 301 as good or better than say a td 124
Bill,
I so much more think that the 124 is better. Much better noise factor and
still has the bass and midrange to kill for. There was much discussion on
this in HIFI World a little over a year ago and the 124 came out on top.
Also Thorens has all the replacement parts you would ever want for those
things.
Gordon
=======> Wavelength Audio <=======
mailto:waudio@cinti.net
http://www.wavelengthaudio.com
ph.fx. 513-271-4186 USA
=========================================================================
From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Torbj=F8rn_Lien?=" <mdrivekl@online.no>
Subject: Re: 301 & td 124
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 01:01:33 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n400
Myselve wrote: [snip]
>
> Now, if someone could guide me to this source for replacements
> parts,-infact,- any tip from 124-users would come in handy: guidance
> ,modifications , what to do/not to, what to look for, how to detect /
> avoid excessive wear etc.
Huh, I couldn't wait,-so this evening I managed to find the
box with the td124 and then I started to disassemble it right
on the kitchen table. (I'm really good at disassembling !..)
Quite easy, this thing look simple enough.
For starters, the woodframe needs to be refinished, the four rubber
"standoffs" is rather cracked and dry...I def. need to replace
those,-or get me something that can do the same job..
Then I carefully disassembled the main bearing, and cleaned
both it, and the platter shaft thorougly with white spirit.. Hmm. I'm
not sure how tight these parts shall fit together, or if I have some
wear here. Shaft looks ok, very close to mirror-finished, but only
very close. Bearings? Who knows. There is some play btw. shaft and
bearing,- but then, the oil in place were rater thick..
What type of oil/grease/siliconeoil(?) can/shall be used here?
(Viscosity anyone?)
The bottom plate- (bottom) bearing of some plastic (nylon) had a
pronounced mark in it. It could easily be replaced with something
homemade,-a disc of teflon? Or maybe delrin?
The rubber belt I'm sure have seen better days, but the idler weel look
good.No dents.It seems that the oil in Motor,-belt-wheel,- and
idler-wheel bearings need to be cleaned out and changed too. Now since
these are "high-speed" parts, I guess it is OK
to use acid-free sewing-machine oil here?
Modifications:The first thing that strikes me is the obvious
fact that all noisy parts are mounted on the same chassis..
I'm sure it was adequate in the late 50's, but today....
The motor sits in some rubber grommets.But this rather big
and ugly thing simply has to be the main source of noise ...Or?
Doug Purl wrote:
[snip]
>.......we had trouble with rumble in the 124 series. WE had >a
powerful bass system to work with, and the Thorens rumbled >and
rumbled. We carved up the top plate of some A.
Was that main-bearing noise, or motor noise? Or maybe idlerweel noise
is the major contributor here?
(BTW, the meaning of the last sentense escapes me.)
I'm sure anyone posessing a td 124 at one time must have
thinked of the possibilyties of just decouple the motor
entirely from the chassis, and then fasten it to the frame
instead...Would be easy to make a more lossy path from motor to
pickup...
Has enyone tried it? Is it wortwhile?
Hm,-this *is* a nice turntable..I think I will use *some*
hours on it,-so any info is welcomed.
Regards,
:TL
=========================================================================
From: flegal@allaban.fr (Francois Yves Le Gal)
Subject: Re: 301 & td 124
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 17:45:16 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n400
At 10:09 25/08/98 -0500, J. Gordon Rankin wrote:
>Here is the technical that puts the 124 over the 301.
A number of Europeans - including me - have tried both (and also the 401,
which always sounded slightly inferior to the 301), and there's a consensus
that a properly maintained and set-up 301 has better bass, better dynamics
and better pitch stability than an "equivalent" TD-124. Mo'music from the
Garrard.
Some, who have listened to a J.C. Verdier rebuilt 124 (a complete feature
was published in l'Audiophile eons ago), believe that this version is as
good - in a different way - as the 301. As I've not listened to it, I can't
be more specific.
IMHO, the real benchmark here is the EMT 930, one of the finest sounding
TTs ever (even with its stock tranny electronics !), and a relative bargain
in Europe as models in good shape - with only cosmetic blemishes - can be
found for between $1,500 and $2,000 - including arm and, sometimes, an EMT
TSD-15 cart.
François Yves Le Gal flegal@allaban.fr
Directeur Associé
Allaban WebSystems Tél : + 33(0)1 4601 9500
43, rue Raspail Fax : + 33 (0)1 4756 0305
F-92300 Levallois-Perret http://www.allaban.fr
=========================================================================
From: Hartmut <Hartmut.Quaschik@mch.sni.de>
Subject: Re: 301 & td 124
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 18:18:26 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n400
J. Gordon Rankin wrote:
> Here is the technical that puts the 124 over the 301. Since there is a
> belt between the idler wheel and the motor, less of the motor noise
> invades the reproduction. But since it is directly driven from there the
> bass is still 99% of a 301. Both of course need a plinth that is denser
> than stock. The only drawback on the 124 is the integral armboard, though
> that is not that big of a deal.
the most perverse thing about the 124 is how speed is regulated:
the synchronous motor always runs at full speed and is stopped down with
an idler current brake at the intermeditate wheel driven by that
belt. Now the more magnetic force you apply to brake, the more
slack you have at the rubber.
This is the reason why 124s always have fluctuations in speed.
You never get it right.
The 301/401 has an asynchronous motor and the motor itself is stopped by
the idler current brake, which also damps the motor. No slack in system.
what you call drawback is the only plus of the 124: the integral
armboard
gives better coupling between motor unit and tonearm.
I have had about 10 Garrards and 3 Thorens 124. Even that 124, which
was mint in condition, wasn't as good as the worst Garrard I had,
soundwise.
Once serviced, a Garrard doesn't show problems for years.
I gave Garrards to all my friends, and they replace Linn LP12 and
other so-called hi-end turntables. I lived with Garrards happily until
last year, when I upgraded to string driven hi-mass turntables.
> Also you can get all the parts you need from Thorensusa.com as long as
> you have a service manual and know the part number. Sure Loricraft has
> obtained the Garrard name and has many NOS parts but still there is no
> one over here that has replacements for the 301.
yes they have belts and idler wheels for the 124, but that is all -
but the original motor isn't available any more, you can only get
a Pabst outer rotor motor with bad designed bearings, which rumbles
a lot and is really a bad motor. And they don't have that rubber
cones (mushrooms) any more, and so on ...
Hartmut from Munich, after many many turntables and 30 tonearms
=========================================================================
From: "J. Gordon Rankin" <waudio@cinti.net>
Subject: Re: 301 & td 124
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 98 10:09:29 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n400
>Gordon: You're nuts-- I'd have to say that the 301 smokes the 124. The 124
>is pretty good and I'm trying to set one up as a second table (once I get
>my first table set up) but the 301 is way better, especially on the low
>end. Of course, after a few beers, who cares? Joe
Joe,
Here is the technical that puts the 124 over the 301. Since there is a
belt between the idler wheel and the motor, less of the motor noise
invades the reproduction. But since it is directly driven from there the
bass is still 99% of a 301. Both of course need a plinth that is denser
than stock. The only drawback on the 124 is the integral armboard, though
that is not that big of a deal.
Also you can get all the parts you need from Thorensusa.com as long as
you have a service manual and know the part number. Sure Loricraft has
obtained the Garrard name and has many NOS parts but still there is no
one over here that has replacements for the 301.
Gordon
=======> Wavelength Audio <=======
mailto:waudio@cinti.net
http://www.wavelengthaudio.com
ph.fx. 513-271-4186 USA
=========================================================================
From: Joe Roberts <jroberts@io.com>
Subject: Re: 301 & td 124
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 17:12:24 -0500 (CDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n401
I'll have an article on the EMT tables in Issue #16. I heard a 930 and 927
next to a 301 and they both made the 301 sound like a damn AM car radio.
Wish somebody would give me an EMT table for Christmas. joe
=========================================================================
From: "Henry Platt" <hnplatt@massed.net>
Subject: Re: 301 & td 124
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 22:52:05 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n403
- ----------
>From: Hartmut <Hartmut.Quaschik@mch.sni.de>
>To: sound practice list <sound>
>Subject: Re: 301 & td 124
>Date: Tue, Aug 25, 1998, 11:18 AM
>
>the most perverse thing about the 124 is how speed is regulated:
>the synchronous motor always runs at full speed and is stopped down with
>an idler current brake at the intermeditate wheel driven by that
>belt. Now the more magnetic force you apply to brake, the more
>slack you have at the rubber.
Take the magnet out and regulate the speed with a variac
=========================================================================
From: Hartmut <Hartmut.Quaschik@mch.sni.de>
Subject: Re: 301 & td 124 & EMT930 & turntable servicing
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 11:24:46 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n401
Joe Roberts wrote:
>
> I'll have an article on the EMT tables in Issue #16. I heard a 930 and 927
> next to a 301 and they both made the 301 sound like a damn AM car radio.
> Wish somebody would give me an EMT table for Christmas. joe
Joe,
I owned an overhauled EMT930 in that heavy steel suspension frame
(100 lbs altogether) - see it in NRDS-issue that Jean-Michel has
sent to many of us Joe-Listers.
One day in 1990 we made a comparison evening with friends.
One had my previous 124 with 3012II, one brought a Garrard 401 with
12 inch Ortofon tonearm.
Guess which won. It was clearly the 401 combo.
I immediately sold my 930 and went to Garrard.
BTW, the 930 is best with Ortofon arms, not with the EMT arms.
Some are supplied with Ortofon arms, I made the mistake to sell
my (non-antiscating old-looking) Ortofon arm and buy a new
EMT tonearm.
One or two years ago a friend had a 930 for sale. I picked it
to make that comparison again. I wanted to shell out the
differences between the motor units alone, so I installed my
3012II on the EMT.
Guess which won. Next day I brought it back to my friend.
Now, how should I characterize the sound of an EMT930
in respect of the Garrard: more grainy, less air
(thanks to the felt brake - if you loose the brake,
it runs too fast, but has air and the grain went away),
exaggerated 50 Hz bass tone, no much bass below,
but pop music sounds very good on the EMT. Very
much energy in the middle bass region.
Well the difference is not that great, in my opinion
the differences of arms are greater. Normally you have
either an EMT or Ortofon tonearm mounted on an EMT motor
unit. The Ortofon is clearly the better.
Remarks on the Garrard: USE GREASE for the bearing,
even if the manual for the 401 says: use oil.
I used either Molybdenum sulfit or grease like that
used for bycicle bearings. Only with such lubrification
the Garrard comes to his final good consistent bass quality,
beating even an EMT930.
If you use grease in a 401, the differences previously heard
between a greased 301 and an oiled 401 fell together,
and the sound of the 401 is even a small amount better
regarding treble resolution.
To summarize, a well serviced EMT with Ortofon tonearm
is as good as a well serviced 401 with Ortofon or
SME3012II tonearm.
But the EMT is much pricier to service. A spare idler
wheel costs 350 DM, that is the same as a used 401
in UK costs.
regards,
Hartmut from Munich
=========================================================================
From: flegal@allaban.fr (Francois Yves Le Gal)
Subject: Re: 301 & td 124 & EMT930 & turntable servicing
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 17:34:16 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n401
At 11:24 26/08/98 +0200, Hartmut wrote:
>One day in 1990 we made a comparison evening with friends.
>One had my previous 124 with 3012II, one brought a Garrard 401 with
>12 inch Ortofon tonearm.
>Guess which won. It was clearly the 401 combo.
Hmm. My listening tests give opposite results. Either using 930s with EMT
or Ortofon AS arms,a nd even using the built-in tranny preamp ! The 930,
when properly maintained and setup, is one of the best TTs I've ever
listened to.
>Now, how should I characterize the sound of an EMT930
>in respect of the Garrard: more grainy, less air
>(thanks to the felt brake - if you loose the brake,
>it runs too fast, but has air and the grain went away),
>exaggerated 50 Hz bass tone, no much bass below,
>but pop music sounds very good on the EMT. Very
>much energy in the middle bass region.
Using the standard mat, I guess. And a 930 on a springing wooden floor,
European style (very nice, but not the best when it comes to TTs).
My favorite 930 combo does either use a "floating glass" (Nagaoka)/felt
hybrid mat, or a metacrylate (Relief/Goldmund) one and an Orsonic/ADC clamp.
>Well the difference is not that great, in my opinion
>the differences of arms are greater. Normally you have
>either an EMT or Ortofon tonearm mounted on an EMT motor
>unit. The Ortofon is clearly the better.
>
>Remarks on the Garrard: USE GREASE for the bearing,
>even if the manual for the 401 says: use oil.
>I used either Molybdenum sulfit or grease like that
>used for bycicle bearings. Only with such lubrification
>the Garrard comes to his final good consistent bass quality,
>beating even an EMT930.
>
>If you use grease in a 401, the differences previously heard
>between a greased 301 and an oiled 401 fell together,
>and the sound of the 401 is even a small amount better
>regarding treble resolution.
>
>To summarize, a well serviced EMT with Ortofon tonearm
>is as good as a well serviced 401 with Ortofon or
>SME3012II tonearm.
>
>But the EMT is much pricier to service. A spare idler
>wheel costs 350 DM, that is the same as a used 401
>in UK costs.
>
>regards,
>Hartmut from Munich
>
François Yves Le Gal flegal@allaban.fr
Directeur Associé
Allaban WebSystems Tél : + 33(0)1 4601 9500
43, rue Raspail Fax : + 33 (0)1 4756 0305
F-92300 Levallois-Perret http://www.allaban.fr
=========================================================================
From: flegal@allaban.fr (Francois Yves Le Gal)
Subject: Re: 301 & td 124 & EMT930 & turntable servicing
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 17:37:40 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n401
Oops. Just clicked on send... Here's the full message.
At 11:24 26/08/98 +0200, Hartmut wrote:
>One day in 1990 we made a comparison evening with friends.
>One had my previous 124 with 3012II, one brought a Garrard 401 with
>12 inch Ortofon tonearm.
>Guess which won. It was clearly the 401 combo.
Hmm. My listening tests give opposite results. Either using 930s with EMT
or Ortofon AS arms,a nd even using the built-in tranny preamp ! The 930,
when properly maintained and setup, is one of the best TTs I've ever
listened to.
>Now, how should I characterize the sound of an EMT930
>in respect of the Garrard: more grainy, less air
>(thanks to the felt brake - if you loose the brake,
>it runs too fast, but has air and the grain went away),
>exaggerated 50 Hz bass tone, no much bass below,
>but pop music sounds very good on the EMT. Very
>much energy in the middle bass region.
Using the standard mat, I guess. And a 930 on a springing wooden floor,
European style (very nice, but not the best when it comes to TTs).
My favorite 930 combo does either use a "floating glass" (Nagaoka)/felt
hybrid mat, or a metacrylate (Relief/Goldmund) one and an Orsonic/ADC
clamp. The TT should use a custom, heavy (sand and lead) stand resting on a
cement floor.
Then the EMT does really shine, or should I say sing.
>Remarks on the Garrard: USE GREASE for the bearing,
Agreed. It reminds me of some etsts with Linns years ago, where the
lubricant did make a substantial difference.
François Yves Le Gal flegal@allaban.fr
Directeur Associé
Allaban WebSystems Tél : + 33(0)1 4601 9500
43, rue Raspail Fax : + 33 (0)1 4756 0305
F-92300 Levallois-Perret http://www.allaban.fr
=========================================================================
From: Kurt Gabitzsch <gabitzkw@webwide.net>
Subject: Re: 301 & td 124 & EMT930 & turntable servicing
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 19:48:13 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n402
I have been following with interest all the discussion concerning the EMT930,
Garrard 301/401, and the TD124. Anyone on the list had the opportunity to
compare these tables/arms with the Merrill modified AR turntable with Morch DP-6
arm? I've been on this list a long time and to date I don't ever recall any
mention of this setup or how it stacks up to the competition.
Kurt
=========================================================================
From: Kurt Gabitzsch <gabitzkw@webwide.net>
Subject: Re: 301 & td 124 & EMT930 & turntable servicing
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 21:39:22 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n403
I have been following with interest all the discussion concerning the EMT930,
Garrard 301/401, and the TD124. Anyone on the list had the opportunity to
compare these tables/arms with the Merrill modified AR turntable with Morch DP-6
arm? I've been on this list a long time and to date I don't ever recall any
mention of this setup or how it stacks up to the competition.
Kurt
=========================================================================
From: Finn Hammer <f-hammer@post5.tele.dk>
Subject: 30 Inch cone on 1,4 Tesla
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 03:03:41 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n449
I have listened to the TYRANNO for 7 days, now, and It is getting
domesticated,
sort of.
One thing it does extremely well, is articulation of the bass. Guitar, and
bassès,
their individual caracter naturally transduced.
I will bring pictures soon, one of the (unfinished) basket can be found
here:
http://home5.inet.tele.dk/f-hammer/basket.jpg
The cone is made out of 16 thousands of an inch thick paper, that is 0.4 mm
to the
rest of us.
It weights 200 grams, I think about 8 ounches. ???
It works best with the magnet at 1.4 T. This seems to be a golden number in
loudspeaker magnet design. They all use it!
Singers sound well, too, but of course, it is still very rough, still. I
hope it
will get more tamed, still.
Yours, Finn
- -- The ultimate insult!
Make your own loudspeaker
http://home5.inet.tele.dk/f-hammer/
=========================================================================
From: "Mayer, Thomas" <Thomas.Mayer@VLSI.com>
Subject: 317 as current source for filaments
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 01:25:56 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n334
All,
there had been some replies to my last post
asking about how to configure the 317 as
current source.
It's fairly simple, all you need is the 317
itslef and a resistor.
Connect your power supply to Vin of the 317
as usual. Connect a resistor from Vout to the
Adj pin. Connect the Adj. pin to your load
( I.e. the filament ).
The 317 will always keep 1.25V across that
resistor, hence the current through it ( and your
load ) will remain constant.
You need to size the resistor according to your
current requirement:
R = 1.25V / current in amps
This might leave you with quite small values.
I put some small film caps ( 100nF ) from Vin to
ground and Vout to ground. In my case ( 801A )
I also needed at least 1000uF across the filament
to shut heater noise up, which expressed itself
as hissing.
One remark: with DHTs, filament voltage will always
differ if you heat with current. In my case I had a too
high voltage on one of the 801's after setting the right
current, so I reduced it a bit.
A question to other 'current heaters' on the list:
How do you deal with that ? Do you set for exact current
even if it results in higher voltage than nominal ?
How did you deal with heater noise ? As I mentioned I
had no trouble with hum, but some hissing which I only
could get rid of with a 1000uF cap.
Ciao ... Thomas
=========================================================================
From: andre@indigo.ie (Andre Jute)
Subject: 3. Brown-noser
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 03:07:38 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n088
QUESTION: "How can something like this happen?" asked by most of the
lurkers who wrote to apologize to me for the behaviour of some of the
members of the Joenet
ANSWER
The roots of the bullying are partially commercial as explained in my other
post, "Who gains financially by the bullying on the Joenet." Besides greed
another good reason is often envy of a superior talent. Some people want to
be big fish in a small pond --"the men who know"-- and resent those who ask
inconvenient questions. Don't forget simple personality clashes: some kinds
of people just can't stand certain kinds of other people and lack the
breeding to hide their feelings. And don't forget the pack instinct; some
people do things not for any good reason but because they see a pack of
others doing and want to belong to the pack. Another manifestation of the
pack instinct is elitism--"we few are better than the unwashed mass out
there"--which Frank Deutschmann spelled out for us when he explained why he
hates my prozelytising and popularizing of tube knowledge.
All those who have such petty motivations already are susceptible to the
many means rotten establishments, like the one we have on the Joelist, use
to encourage organized bullying by hangers-on (here wannabe EEs) of
dissident voices in order to protect the commercial and vanity interests of
that establishment. My exchange with the offlist incitement specialist Reid
Welch below explains in his own words the mechanism through which it works.
Those of you who are interested in studying the causes of the nastier
phenomena of group thuggery can read White's book "Street Corner Society".
In Reid's first comment, note initially the implication in the abrupt
"Agreed" that Reid is the moderator or arbitrator of these matters, and
then note the implied threat ("do hold that thought") of further nastiness
being directed at me if I should refuse to lie down and let myself be
fucked over by Reid's (hitherto undeclared) dirty-shorts chums. Marvel at
the sibilant insincerity of that public "please"! I sensed that Reid was
becoming arrogant about his treacheries, so my reply invited him to behave
like a human being in the hope of revelations made in anger and
bingo--jackpot!
Don't you just love Freudian slips? It really doesn't take much to sew it
all together when one has so much evidence to work with, not to mention so
many confessions from the guilty: Reed's slip below where he accuses me of
what he has been encouraging his buddies to do to me, Mike's "spanking"
slip, Ron's slip identifying Mike, Rick and Tom's slippery fascination with
feces, Pat's original slip about Mike's business morals and hypocrisies,
the multitude of careless slips about easily refutable "facts" because they
thought they were safe behind my back, the even more careless untruths
about the article which could have been pointed out by any subscriber to
GA, the overall slipshod carelessness of the whole venture because they
thought I was gone and those who remain are too cowed to stand up to their
thuggery. Like all bullies, this lot of sad sacks must want to be caught
out.
FROM REID WELCH, COMMENTING ON THE COLLECTION OF NASTINESS BY THE SOILED
LINEN BRIGADE THAT I PUBLISHED WITHOUT COMMENT:
>At 07:24 PM 8/6/97 +0100, Andre wrote:
>--------------------------------------
>...10k snip
>Any comment from me would be superfluous.
>
>Andre
Agreed.
Please do hold that thought, Andre
Reid
FROM ANDRE JUTE
Up yours, Reid. That "10k snip" you highlight consisted entirely of a snide
attack on me behind my back to which I have reacted with great restraint.
When you publish an equally brutal reproach to the foul manners of this
pack of unreconstructed school bullies running around burning books, I
shall believe in your goodwill and consider your advice.
Andre
FROM REID WELCH
Dear Andre
You have consistently come off as a long winded bully.
Yes, you did react with true restraint to an overtly cruel series of jabs.
Those insults result from a long-forming consensus of opinion with which I
fully concur.
I won't begrudge your parting shot. It's OK.
Farewell,
Reid
ANDRE JUTE COMMENTS:
1. A "long-forming consensus of opinion", eh? Evidenced as a sneaky attack
behind my back when I have been gone nearly a year. How many offlist
letters did you write egging those people on? What do you hope to get out
of it? Who put you up to it directly or by suggestion or inducement or
flattery? Will you publish every exchange you have had offlist with Mike
LaFevre, Frank Deutschmann, Ron Bales, Pat Currie (or his mouthpiece Tom
Ronan), and every other every offlist communication you wrote or received
in which my name appears or in which I am otherwise referred to?
2. A "long-forming consensus of opinion", followed by a concerted attempt
by the "concurrents" at ostracizing someone by vicious personal attack
amounting to character assassination--that is the classic textbook pattern
and rationale of bullying. At the next step they do physical harm and are
called a lynch mob.
3. Since when is being "long-winded" a hanging, drawing and quartering offence?
4. Kindly produce whoever I am supposed to have bullied, Reid.
5. Where were you with your pretty moral outrage when for more than a year
Frank Deutschmann bullied me viciously? How many public letters reproaching
him did you write? How many offlist letters did you write to egg Frank
Deutschmann on?
6. "Farewell"! And "parting shot"! Who elected you to decide who is a
member of this list? I remember you writing to me offlist when you had been
here hardly a week, suggesting in your usual handwiping arse-creeping way a
longish list of members who should be forced to resign because they didn't
meet the tone of the place you wanted to establish or the set of rules you
also proposed in that letter. Do you remember my short, sharp reply?
(Christ, even the studiedly urbane Doug Purl was so horrified by your
presumption and your Stalinism that he used strong language.) Do you think
that bellying up ("longforming" indeed!) to the same people you then
instantly despised is a symptom of a flexible intelligence or a sneaky
opportunism?
7. Please do reply in detail, Reid, sentence by sentence. I wouldn't want
to accuse you, try you, and find you guilty without your presence or
without giving you a full opportunity to answer these very grave charges,
and then publicly to hang you as soon as you pop up--as you and your gang
tried to do to me.
Andre
Andre Jute
andre@indigo.ie
Communication Jute
http://www.foundmark.com/ComJute/ComJuteF1.html
also leads to the pages we support for audiophiles, writers, lovers of
classical music, and environmentalists
=========================================================================
From: "Conrad Drake" <conrad.drake@intellect.com.au>
Subject: 3 Channel (WasRe: Ecdysiasm)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 11:08:35 +0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n392
Lynn,
excuse my ignorance of THX and home theatre, but how are you generating your channel signals?
Are you using the "center" signal supplied by the "decoder" or are you synthesising it (and the othe
r signals) from a two-channel L/R signal?
Conrad D
>>> "Lynn T. Olson" <lynno@teleport.com> 08/15 5:30 pm >>>
<big snip>
The trick is to throw THX entirely out the window, and use matched
identical speakers everywhere, just like WE, RCA, Cinerama, CinemaScope,
and Todd-AO. You want power, go with PP 845's, just like the big boys did.
Three channels of 845 and Beethoven's 9th and "Lawrence of Arabia" are no
problem. Now *there's* a setup ... HDTV projector, DVD, DD, and 3 channels
of PP 845 driving three Exemplars. Dynamics, anyone?
=========================================================================
From: STEVE CORNETT <SCORNETT@usagroup.com>
Subject: 3M Damping Material
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 08:03:18 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n128
Passing along FYI.
Steve C.
"Imagination is more important than knowledge"
- - Albert Einstein
>>> "Harry Straub" <hjstaub@worldnet.att.net> 12/05/97 03:47pm >>>
Steve,
A friend of mine sent me your posting hoping I could help, I am in the
vibration control group at 3M. The 3M material that Ron was referring to
is not available at retail. There are however some 4.5" x 8" sheets of 10
mil stainless steel with 5 mil 3M ISD 112 damping polymer still available.
Both Music Direct and Michael Percy should have some left in stock. This
product has been discontinues, but is EXCELLENT for damping chassis,
horns, whatever vibrates. I think they sell them for $7 a sheet, they
come with a blue poly liner that is removable to prevent scratches, and
you can cut them with tin snips.
Since I am not aware of which newsgroup these postings came from,
can you please post this information. Thank you, I hope this helps.
Harry Straub
3M Vibration Control Products
=========================================================================
From: "J. Gordon Rankin" <waudio@cinti.net>
Subject: Re: 3M Damping Material
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 97 10:47:50 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n128
Steve,
Michael Percy has them, I use them they are great in the area around
power transformers etc...
Gordon
=======> Wavelength Audio <=======
mailto:waudio@cinti.net
http://www.wavelengthaudio.com
ph.fx. 513-271-4186 USA
Tim Reese