Sound Practices Mailing List Files - Volume 1
=========================================================================
From: Thomas Dunker <dunker@invalid.ed.unit.no>
Subject: (E180F vs E810F) + Tek 1L5
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 20:21:38 +0200 (MET DST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n329
On Wed, 1 Jul 1998, Johari Yip wrote:
> ----------
> > From: T. Loesch <ezee_e@hotmail.com>
> > To: hfyip@pacific.net.sg; dunker@invalid.ed.unit.no
> > Cc: sound@deliverator.io.com; groverg@postoffice.att.net
> > Subject: Re: Cathode follower drive
> > Date: Tuesday, June 30, 1998 11:11 PM
>
> > >There's also a bunch of nice pentodes that turn into high-gm
> > >wonder-triodes when triode wired, one example being the
> > >7788/E810F that Grego mentioned in his SP article.
> >
> > Has anyone actually got a Data-Sheet around for the E810F? I have a few
> > in my Valves Box....
>
> Should it be E180F instead of E810F? (great tube to use for a single tube
> phono stage too).
No, the E180F is a different tube. An equivalent to the E180F is 6688.
E810F is the same as the US type 7788. E180F has lower max plate
dissipation at 3W (5W for E810F). The E810F also has much higher
transconductance (50mA/V nom. at 35mA plate current) versus E180F
(16.5mA/V at 13mA plate current). Also, E810F/7788 is rated for a
maximum cathode current of 50mA (10,000 hours life) whereas the
max. cathode current of E180F/6688 is only 25mA.
BTW, the E186F/7737 is practically identical to E180F/6688,
apart from slight differences in max. screen dissipation, max. bulb
temperature and other minor things. The plate curves (pentode) for
both these tubes are identical in my Philips manual.
I have heard rumors that these tubes can be quite microphonic, so
I'm not sure just how great they are for apps. like high gain phono
stages. But the high transconductance and resulting low noise resistance
looks appealing for such applications.
Oh, and while I'm at it, as of today I am the happy owner of the elusive
(?) Tektronix 1L5 spectrum analyzer plugin that I will be using in my
547 scope. Unfortunately, after about an hour of learning as much as
possible about the 1L5, the EHT power supply of the 547 suddenly died
and I was left with repair duty instead of spectrum analysis. Ted Riesz
mentioned that the 6AU5 in the oscillator of the EHT supply of the 547
is failure-prone, and I am fairly sure that mine just failed. This supply
has a tricky feedback regulator that makes it just about impossible to
find out where the problem is actually at. I'll try to find a replacement
6AU5 tomorrow to get back in business.
Anyhow, I did query the list members about the specs of the 1L5 (same as
3L5, 7L5 etc...??) and its usefulness for audio measurements etc without
getting any answers. I know that there's more people out there looking for
these units, so I thought I'd share some of the info with you. The
Center Frequency Range is 50Hz-990kHz, making it useful for most kinds of
audio measurements. The Dispersion (Hz/cm) can be set in steps from 10Hz
to 100kHz. The input attenuator can be set in 22 steps from 100V/cm down
to 1mV/cm. The vertical display can be set for linear or logarithmic,
and the unit has ">60dB" dynamic range (noise level =<5 microvolts).
The useful sweep rates are low (20ms recommended) and the sweep output
of the scope is applied to the sweep input terminal of the 1L5. The low
sweep rate makes the display a bit tiring to watch, but I tried coupling
the vertical output of the 547 to two different storage scope and this
works fairly good, except that I get a lot of overshoot (the display on
the 547 looks great though). I got pretty spectra with square and triangle
signals applied to the 1L5, and depending on the test frequency,
dispersion settings etc. I could view harmonics up to the 20th and beyond.
Unfortunately, the scope died before I could perform any real world
measurements, but I think "this is the beginning of a beautiful
friendship". Once I get the scope running again, I will try using the
1L5 in conjunction with an old HP distortion analyzer that notches out
the fundamental.
And I'd still love to hear from people who've been using this unit
or anything similar, on good setups, hints etc.
Tom D.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
_/\_ Thomas Dunker \ The Horn Speaker Home Page:
/ \ P.O.Box 2811 \ http://invalid.ed.ntnu.no/~dunker/horns.html
| | 7002 Trondheim \
| | NORWAY \--\ "Those with head above water
\____/ dunker@omegav.ntnu.no \ see only the tip of the iceberg"
|||| phone (+47)73916898 \ (Gene Dalby)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
From: "Johari Yip" <hfyip@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: (E180F vs E810F) + Tek 1L5
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 08:27:25 +0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n330
- ----------
> From: Thomas Dunker <dunker@invalid.ed.unit.no>
> To: Johari Yip <hfyip@pacific.net.sg>
> Cc: T. Loesch <ezee_e@hotmail.com>; sound@deliverator.io.com;
groverg@postoffice.att.net
> Subject: (E180F vs E810F) + Tek 1L5
> Date: Thursday, July 02, 1998 2:21 AM
> > Should it be E180F instead of E810F? (great tube to use for a single
tube
> > phono stage too).
>
> No, the E180F is a different tube. An equivalent to the E180F is 6688.
> E810F is the same as the US type 7788. E180F has lower max plate
> dissipation at 3W (5W for E810F). The E810F also has much higher
> transconductance (50mA/V nom. at 35mA plate current) versus E180F
> (16.5mA/V at 13mA plate current). Also, E810F/7788 is rated for a
> maximum cathode current of 50mA (10,000 hours life) whereas the
> max. cathode current of E180F/6688 is only 25mA.
> BTW, the E186F/7737 is practically identical to E180F/6688,
> apart from slight differences in max. screen dissipation, max. bulb
> temperature and other minor things. The plate curves (pentode) for
> both these tubes are identical in my Philips manual.
> I have heard rumors that these tubes can be quite microphonic, so
> I'm not sure just how great they are for apps. like high gain phono
> stages. But the high transconductance and resulting low noise resistance
> looks appealing for such applications.
<snip>
Tom
Thanks for this very informative post. Guess I've mistaken the 7788 for the
6688.
Just curious. How much gain or db can I get from a single E810F or E180F if
used in a single tube phonostage? Would it be sufficient for low MC
cartridges (0.3mV)?
TIA
Johari
=========================================================================
From: Thomas Dunker <dunker@invalid.ed.unit.no>
Subject: Re: (E180F vs E810F) + Tek 1L5
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 13:11:55 +0200 (MET DST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n330
On Thu, 2 Jul 1998, Johari Yip wrote:
> Thanks for this very informative post. Guess I've mistaken the 7788 for the
> 6688.
> Just curious. How much gain or db can I get from a single E810F or E180F if
> used in a single tube phonostage? Would it be sufficient for low MC
> cartridges (0.3mV)?
Used as a triode or a pentode?
The E180F/6688 has a mu of about 50, ri=2.4K, gm=21mA/V when triode
connected (screen wired to plate), 160V/16.5mA on the plate.
The characteristics of the triode wired E810F/7788 would have to be
derived from the curves...but the mu could be made roughly the same
as for the 6688/E180F, but with higher gm and lower ri. There's so
many variables. The same tubes do of course have tons of gain when used
as pentodes, and the equivalent noise resistance of the 7788 is still way
low at 110 ohms.
Tom D.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
_/\_ Thomas Dunker \ The Horn Speaker Home Page:
/ \ P.O.Box 2811 \ http://invalid.ed.ntnu.no/~dunker/horns.html
| | 7002 Trondheim \
| | NORWAY \--\ "Those with head above water
\____/ dunker@omegav.ntnu.no \ see only the tip of the iceberg"
|||| phone (+47)73916898 \ (Gene Dalby)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
From: "Johari Yip" <hfyip@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: (E180F vs E810F) + Tek 1L5
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 13:44:12 +0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n330
- ----------
> From: Thomas Dunker <dunker@invalid.ed.unit.no>
> To: Johari Yip <hfyip@pacific.net.sg>
> Cc: T. Loesch <ezee_e@hotmail.com>; sound@deliverator.io.com;
groverg@postoffice.att.net
> Subject: (E180F vs E810F) + Tek 1L5
> Date: Thursday, July 02, 1998 2:21 AM
> I have heard rumors that these tubes can be quite microphonic, so
> I'm not sure just how great they are for apps. like high gain phono
> stages. But the high transconductance and resulting low noise resistance
> looks appealing for such applications.
Being a pentode, I think should be less prone to microphonics as compared
to a triode.
But then again, microphonics might not be a "bad ill" after all if it's not
too bad.
Johari
=========================================================================
From: "Johari Yip" <hfyip@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: (E180F vs E810F) + Tek 1L5
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 22:05:41 +0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n330
> Used as a triode or a pentode?
> The E180F/6688 has a mu of about 50, ri=2.4K, gm=21mA/V when triode
> connected (screen wired to plate), 160V/16.5mA on the plate.
> The characteristics of the triode wired E810F/7788 would have to be
> derived from the curves...but the mu could be made roughly the same
> as for the 6688/E180F, but with higher gm and lower ri. There's so
> many variables. The same tubes do of course have tons of gain when used
> as pentodes, and the equivalent noise resistance of the 7788 is still way
> low at 110 ohms.
Used as a pentode.
=========================================================================
From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Torbj=F8rn_Lien?=" <mdrivekl@online.no>
Subject: E182CC operating point
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 09:17:51 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n533
Hi all,-
I remember vaguely that someone on this list wanted to
use the E182CC as driver tube. Thats a wise decision.
One good operating point for this tube, [judged by a
single species only!!] is:
140V@30mA.
Alittle less current if you get power microphony, but
thats not likely.
I use my tube-tester, the AVO VCM163, to check out
working-points, if tube data is not at hand. Reading
transconductanse while dialing in different anode
voltages, keeping current constant.
The E182CC seems to have quite constant gm when current
is constant,U varying between 90 to 190 volts, gm dropping
just noticeably at either end.
Torbjoern Lien
>
>
>
>
>
=========================================================================
From: Finn Hammer <f-hammer@post5.tele.dk>
Subject: E55L curves
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 20:09:05 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n393
An-shyang Chu wrote:
>
> Hi Joes,
>
> Now we have the 7788 curves, does anyone have the curves/specs for the 8233
> (E55L) in triode mode??
>
> Best regards,
>
> hopper
Shure:
http://home5.inet.tele.dk/f-hammer/E55L.GIF
Finn
- --
HOME OF
Tractrix Horns, Tube Amps,
Fieldcoil Loudspeakers and Computer Graphics
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Tractrix Horns, Tube Amps,
Fieldcoil Loudspeakers and Computer Graphics
http://home5.inet.tele.dk/f-hammer/
=========================================================================
From: Simon Busbridge <scb2@saturn.bton.ac.uk>
Subject: E80F
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:40:37 +0100 (BST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n415
Hi Folks,
Does anyone know if this is a special quality EF80? I'm restoring an old
Pye AM/FM tuner. Not exactly hi-fi I know, but fun as the long winter
nights approach...
TIA
Simon
Dr Simon Busbridge
Department of Mechanical and Manufacturing Engineering
University of Brighton
Lewes Road
Moulsecoomb
Brighton BN2 4GJ
UNITED KINGDOM
Tel: 0044 (0)1273 642542
Fax: 0044 (0)1273 642327
e-mail: s.c.busbridge@bton.ac.uk, scbusbridge@hotmail.com
=========================================================================
From: Cuno Snoeren <c.snoeren@tip.nl>
Subject: Re: E80F
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 22:59:51 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n416
> Simon Busbridge wrote:
>
> Hi Folks,
>
> Does anyone know if this is a special quality EF80?
Yes it is normally a reliable, ruggedized and long life version.
And the E80F is a long life and rugged construction version, also
available as the 6084 or CV2729.
Cuno
c.snoeren@tip.nl
http://www.ariel.club.tip.nl
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: E80F
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 00:19:15 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n416
At 22:59 8-9-98 +0200, Cuno Snoeren wrote:
>> Simon Busbridge wrote:
>>
>> Hi Folks,
>>
>> Does anyone know if this is a special quality EF80?
Yes, E80F differs from EF80 !
E80F is more or less similar to EF856, but sounds better !
Guido
>Yes it is normally a reliable, ruggedized and long life version.
>And the E80F is a long life and rugged construction version, also
>available as the 6084 or CV2729.
>
>Cuno
>c.snoeren@tip.nl
>http://www.ariel.club.tip.nl
>
>
=========================================================================
From: Mattijs de Vries <mdevries@avvt.com>
Subject: Re: E80F
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 00:29:27 +0000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n416
Hello,
>Yes, E80F differs from EF80 !
Indeed they do, for comparison (capacitances also differ, but I am lazy
today ;)):
EF80 E80F
Va 250 250
Vg1 -3.5 -2
Vg2 250 100
Ia 10 3
s 6.8 1.85
mu(triode) 50 25
Rplate 650 1k5
Ia-max 15 9
Pa-max 2.5 1.3
Ig2-max 0.7 0.4
Vg2-max 300 200
The E80F makes an excellent replacement for the EF86's used in the Quad II
amps by the way, an absolute recommendation!
Bye,
_______
| _____ | MachMat, Mattijs de Vries
/ | | \ Top-Fi audio equipment, Tube sales
| | ||| | | Distributor AVVT Benelux
| | ||| | | ------------------------------------------------
| | ||| | | E-mail : MdeVries@AVVT.COM (Private)
| | ||| | | MachMat@AVVT.COM (Business)
| |_____| | URL : HTTP://WWW.AVVT.COM/machmat/
\ ||| / Adress : Campuslaan 41-214, 7522 NG, Enschede
|/_|_\| Country : The Netherlands, Europe
| | Phone : 0031-53-4895091, Fax : 0031-53-4357234
|_____| ------------------------------------------------
|| || Designing is the art of making compromises.
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: E80F
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 18:22:24 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n417
At 00:29 9-9-98 +0000, Mattijs de Vries wrote:
>Hello,
>
>>Yes, E80F differs from EF80 !
>
>Indeed they do, for comparison (capacitances also differ, but I am lazy
>today ;)):
>
> EF80 E80F
>
>Va 250 250
>Vg1 -3.5 -2
>Vg2 250 100
>Ia 10 3
>s 6.8 1.85
>mu(triode) 50 25
>Rplate 650 1k5
>Ia-max 15 9
>Pa-max 2.5 1.3
>Ig2-max 0.7 0.4
>Vg2-max 300 200
>
>The E80F makes an excellent replacement for the EF86's used in the Quad II
>amps by the way, an absolute recommendation!
That is exactly the place were I put them ! worth doing so !
Guido
>Bye,
> _______
> | _____ | MachMat, Mattijs de Vries
>/ | | \ Top-Fi audio equipment, Tube sales
>| | ||| | | Distributor AVVT Benelux
>| | ||| | | ------------------------------------------------
>| | ||| | | E-mail : MdeVries@AVVT.COM (Private)
>| | ||| | | MachMat@AVVT.COM (Business)
>| |_____| | URL : HTTP://WWW.AVVT.COM/machmat/
> \ ||| / Adress : Campuslaan 41-214, 7522 NG, Enschede
> |/_|_\| Country : The Netherlands, Europe
> | | Phone : 0031-53-4895091, Fax : 0031-53-4357234
> |_____| ------------------------------------------------
> || || Designing is the art of making compromises.
>
>
=========================================================================
From: Darrell Whitfield <dwhitf@swbell.net>
Subject: E810F/7788 data?
Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 10:25:59 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n209
Can any one tell me where I can find data (curves) on this tube?
I was told it was on the net and one of you guys might now.
Thanks in advance!
Darrell
=========================================================================
From: Thomas Dunker <dunker@invalid.ed.unit.no>
Subject: Re: E810F/7788 data?
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 10:22:18 +0100 (MET)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n212
On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Darrell Whitfield wrote:
> Can any one tell me where I can find data (curves) on this tube?
> I was told it was on the net and one of you guys might now.
> Thanks in advance!
I have curves and specs on this tube, send me your mail address
and I'll have it copied and mailed to you.
Tom D.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
_/\_ Thomas Dunker \ The Horn Speaker Home Page:
/ \ P.O.Box 2811 \ http://invalid.ed.unit.no/~dunker/horns.html
| | 7002 Trondheim \
| | NORWAY \------\ "Those with head above water
\____/ dunker@invalid.ed.unit.no \ see only the tip of the iceberg"
|||| phone (+47)73916898 \ (Gene Dalby)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
From: Scott Grammer <tubedude@cdc.net>
Subject: E810F Specs Posted
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 11:29:05 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n391
Folks:
I got the E810F specs from Darrell Whitfield in the snailmail yesterday,
and I have scanned and posted them. You can find them at:
http://www.cdc.net/~tubedude/tubespec.html
Cheers!
S.G.
- --
Check out TubeDude's Webpage of Vacuum Tube Lore!
http://www.cdc.net/~tubedude/
Now with Lemon Scented Borax!
=========================================================================
From: An-shyang Chu <achu@sandia.gov>
Subject: Re: E810F Specs Posted
Date: 17 Aug 1998 09:21:56 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n392
Hi Joes,
Now we have the 7788 curves, does anyone have the curves/specs for the 8233
(E55L) in triode mode??
Best regards,
hopper
_______________________________________________________________________________
Subject: E810F Specs Posted
From: tubedude@cdc.net at hubsmtp
Date: 8/16/98 9:43 AM
Folks:
I got the E810F specs from Darrell Whitfield in the snailmail yesterday,
and I have scanned and posted them. You can find them at:
http://www.cdc.net/~tubedude/tubespec.html
Cheers!
S.G.
- --
Check out TubeDude's Webpage of Vacuum Tube Lore!
http://www.cdc.net/~tubedude/
Now with Lemon Scented Borax!
=========================================================================
From: Scott Grammer <tubedude@cdc.net>
Subject: Re: E810F Specs Posted
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 19:08:56 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n393
Folks:
Hopper reminded me that Mac users can't easily deal with .zip files such as I
posted the E810F files in. For those who need it, please email me privately and I
will be happy to email you the files as .gif, .jpeg, .tiff, or prety much
.whatever. Sorry, I can't do .pdf, not until I buy the software. Can you say $$$?
Cheers!
S.G.
- --
Check out TubeDude's Webpage of Vacuum Tube Lore!
http://www.cdc.net/~tubedude/
Now with Lemon Scented Borax!
=========================================================================
From: Grover Gardner <groverg@postoffice.att.net>
Subject: Re: E810F Specs Posted
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 02:38:26 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n394
At 7:08 PM -0400 8/17/98, Scott Grammer wrote:
>Folks:
>Hopper reminded me that Mac users can't easily deal with .zip files such as I
>posted the E810F files in. For those who need it, please email me
>privately and I
>will be happy to email you the files as .gif, .jpeg, .tiff, or prety much
>.whatever. Sorry, I can't do .pdf, not until I buy the software. Can you
>say $$$?
Shouldn't be a problem--download shareware ZipIt for Macs and unpack the
file. My Mac also has EasyOpen or some other translation thing, but I
think most Macs do...
Grover Gardner
groverg@postoffice.att.net
=========================================================================
From: Simon Busbridge <S.C.Busbridge@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: E810F Specs Posted
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 13:36:28 +0100 (BST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n394
Scott,
Thanks for doing it - whatever format you use - data is always
appreciated.
Best wishes
Simon
Dr Simon Busbridge
Department of Mechanical and Manufacturing Engineering
University of Brighton
Lewes Road
Moulsecoomb
Brighton BN2 4GJ
UNITED KINGDOM
Tel: 0044 (0)1273 642542
Fax: 0044 (0)1273 642327
e-mail: s.c.busbridge@bton.ac.uk
On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, Scott Grammer wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Folks:
> Hopper reminded me that Mac users can't easily deal with .zip files such as I
> posted the E810F files in. For those who need it, please email me privately and I
> will be happy to email you the files as .gif, .jpeg, .tiff, or prety much
> .whatever. Sorry, I can't do .pdf, not until I buy the software. Can you say $$$?
>
>
> Cheers!
> S.G.
>
> --
> Check out TubeDude's Webpage of Vacuum Tube Lore!
> http://www.cdc.net/~tubedude/
> Now with Lemon Scented Borax!
>
>
>
=========================================================================
From: Darrell Whitfield <dwhitf@swbell.net>
Subject: Re: E810F Specs Posted
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 22:21:49 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n395
Yes I've said it privately, thanks Scott for scanning the pages for me and helping me
give something back to the guys on Joenet who have been very nice to this newbie.Also
for cleaning up the pages a bit (edges ,etc). good job.
Darrell
Simon Busbridge wrote:
> Scott,
>
> Thanks for doing it - whatever format you use - data is always
> appreciated.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Simon
>
> Dr Simon Busbridge
> Department of Mechanical and Manufacturing Engineering
> University of Brighton
> Lewes Road
> Moulsecoomb
> Brighton BN2 4GJ
> UNITED KINGDOM
>
> Tel: 0044 (0)1273 642542
> Fax: 0044 (0)1273 642327
> e-mail: s.c.busbridge@bton.ac.uk
>
> On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, Scott Grammer wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Folks:
> > Hopper reminded me that Mac users can't easily deal with .zip files such as I
> > posted the E810F files in. For those who need it, please email me privately and I
> > will be happy to email you the files as .gif, .jpeg, .tiff, or prety much
> > .whatever. Sorry, I can't do .pdf, not until I buy the software. Can you say $$$?
> >
> >
> > Cheers!
> > S.G.
> >
> > --
> > Check out TubeDude's Webpage of Vacuum Tube Lore!
> > http://www.cdc.net/~tubedude/
> > Now with Lemon Scented Borax!
> >
> >
> >
=========================================================================
From: Scott Grammer <tubedude@cdc.net>
Subject: Re: E810F Specs Posted
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 06:10:58 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n395
Darrell Whitfield wrote:
> Yes I've said it privately, thanks Scott for scanning the pages for me and helping me
> give something back to the guys on Joenet who have been very nice to this newbie.Also
> for cleaning up the pages a bit (edges ,etc). good job.
>
> Darrell
>
No sweat!
S.G.
- --
Check out TubeDude's Webpage of Vacuum Tube Lore!
http://www.cdc.net/~tubedude/
Now with Lemon Scented Borax!
=========================================================================
From: Keiko Honjo <KHONJO@IMF.ORG>
Subject: E92CC
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:00:59 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n018
Hi everyone!
I have some Telefunken E92CC in original boxes. Does anybody know
what is this tube for? My guess is that this is the tube used in Telefunken
amp V69a but not quite sure.
Thanks!
Keiko Honjo
khonjo@imf.org
=========================================================================
From: Guido Tent <gtent@ehv.sc.philips.com>
Subject: Re: E92CC
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 08:50:16 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n019
At 11:00 10-09-97 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi everyone!
>
>I have some Telefunken E92CC in original boxes. Does anybody know
>what is this tube for?
As far as I know it's a tube designed for computers ! (1 bit memory cell
with one double triode). I should have the curves at home, shall have a look
Guido
>My guess is that this is the tube used in Telefunken
>amp V69a but not quite sure.
>Thanks!
>
>Keiko Honjo
>khonjo@imf.org
>
>
" 640K ought to be enough for anybody" , Bill Gates, 1981
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed herin are my personal ones and do not in
any way reflect opinions or policies of my employer.
Guido Tent
Engineer Electro Magnetic Compatibility
Philips Semiconductors Systems Laboratory Eindhoven (PS-SLE)
Building BE303, (Hurksestraat 19)
P.O.Box 218, 5600MD Eindhoven, The Netherlands
Phone: +31-40-27 24553
fax : +31-40-27 22764
- - Let's make things better ! -
E-mail: guido.tent@ehv. sc.philips.com
Seri : gtent@nlsce1
=========================================================================
From: Rimmer deVries <rdevries@ameritech.net>
Subject: Re: EAR 834p
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 23:13:28 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n303
Randy:
let me know how your mods to the EAR 834p work out, I've had an EAR
phono box for the past 2 years and like it though it is not the end all
phono stage. I find very little differnece between swaping tubes: i'v
used mullard 12AX7, Tele smoothe plate and ribbed plate, now using GE
JAN 5751 green label which sound great a little crisper than the tele
smooth plates.
I was just looking at the 76 line stage by Bruce Berman in SP 13. it
looks very interesting about 75% power supply, 15% extra power supply
filter and the rest is the audio circuit. it should be good but heavy.
Does anyone have experience with this type of second "LC" filtering on
the audio chassis? Is this second stage really necessary as opposed to
getting the B+ to the operting voltage in the separate power supply?
Also does anyone have experience running AC vs DC on the 76 or 37
filiments?
Rimmer
Rhthatcher@ra.rockwell.com wrote:
>
> about 2 years ago i built a kit from randy fay. it uses a 6dj8/6922 into a
> el84 CF with a 12ay7 current source.
> http://k2.cwru.edu/~rht3/ls.htm has a little about it.
> i have black gates, hovland coupling caps, a rubicon and axon in the ps,
> and caddock resistors in mine. the only
> wire is about 2 inches of silver wire, the rest of the signal goes through
> the few components in the thing.
> it's cheap to build, and it should stomp things like sonic frontiers,
> melos, krell, etc...
>
> Randy's a great guy, he's helped me on the phone while fixing and tweaking
> and generally
> put up with a lot of my newbie crap. I may build his design with the 5687
> if i get around to calling him and
> get it. I don't know what tranny he has for that, but i may have something
> that will do. before the 5687 he
> was doing a 12bh7 kit. bottom line, a little money goes a LONG way with
> randy fay's designs. i say
> go for it! if you don't like it you're out about the same cash as a pair
> of cheap boutique interconnects.
>
> i may breadboard a 5687 preamp and a 76 preamp and try them. anyone here
> build the linestage
> in SP 13? how does it sound? anyone have the iron for it? i have a spare
> 250-0-250, a 300V, and a
> 550-0-550 (quite big for a preamp, tho), but nothing too close for that
> preamp. i may have a choke
> or 2 from the SJS phono stage i'm tearing up soon.
>
> I've decided to go with the EAR 834P. I can't try to find the noise for
> months on end and NOT
> enjoy my vinyl. i've been vinyl starved since january and i'm fed up.
> projects are fun and all, but the
> music is more important to me! I've been borrowing a friend's EAR, and it
> is pretty nice. I figure i'll drop
> a few Tele's i have into it, maybe use some hovlands in there, maybe drop
> in some freds (if i can fit 'em!)
> and try that. got the thing for 1/3 off as a demo... hope it shows up
> soon as i have to return my friend's in the
> morning!
>
> Anyone have (2) 0.15uF or (2) 1.0uF Hovland's they'd sell me?
>
> -randy thatcher (not fay)
>
> 2) Randy Fay has a very simple design that uses one 5687. He sells
> everything you need to build minus chassis, jacks, and switches for $125.
> Kit includes a NOS
> military PT. His number is (519) 735-2462. He only runs the tube at 85V
> @ 8 ma. Gain is about 12. Go to deja news and do a search for his last
> post in r.a.m.
> 2/15/98 for more detail on the design (try "5687 linestage").
=========================================================================
From: Paul Joppa <pdj@ISDNseattle.net>
Subject: Re: Ear break-in (was Lowther then ..@VSAC)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 17:23:03 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n467
Joes-
My own experience is consistent with the ear breakin idea. I've always
admired the dynamics of horns, and been in love with the idea of them,
but I always heard some high-frequency roughness which I find
irritating. Couldn't really imagine living with one. But I had these
parts, see, so I put together a system for "just temporary" - JBLs,
2220's crossed at 800 to 2441's on the short horns with the small
slant-plate lens. Small soggy cabinet. Nothing high-end in the JoeList
sense, but just an experiment, right? Fired it up with great hopes,
but sure enough the highs grated on my ears. Spent several weeks
fiddling with the L-pad on the tweeters, never finding a satisfactory
compromise.
Fortunately I was too lazy/busy with other things so it stayed in the
living room for several months. I gradually got used to it, and found
the high-frequency screech (and the midband honk) less irritating - in
fact, I grew to like the sound more and more. I find now that I not
only enjoy them, I like John's Exemplars too, and can enjoy them for
hours. Finally, horns make sense to me! Maybe some day I'll even be
able to tolerate A-7's! :^)
I conclude that there are some faults to which one can become
accustomed, and others which grow more and more irritating with time.
I'll take the former over the latter any day.
- -Paul Joppa
=========================================================================
From: Joe Pledger <doodle@navicom.com>
Subject: Re: Ear break-in (was Lowther then ..@VSAC)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 20:20:31 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n467
Paul Joppa wrote:
>
> Joes-
>
> My own experience is consistent with the ear breakin idea. I've always
> admired the dynamics of horns, and been in love with the idea of them,
> but I always heard some high-frequency roughness which I find
> irritating. Couldn't really imagine living with one. But I had these
> parts, see, so I put together a system for "just temporary" - JBLs,
> 2220's crossed at 800 to 2441's on the short horns with the small
> slant-plate lens. Small soggy cabinet. Nothing high-end in the JoeList
> sense, but just an experiment, right? Fired it up with great hopes,
> but sure enough the highs grated on my ears. Spent several weeks
> fiddling with the L-pad on the tweeters, never finding a satisfactory
> compromise.
>
> Fortunately I was too lazy/busy with other things so it stayed in the
> living room for several months. I gradually got used to it, and found
> the high-frequency screech (and the midband honk) less irritating - in
> fact, I grew to like the sound more and more. I find now that I not
> only enjoy them, I like John's Exemplars too, and can enjoy them for
> hours. Finally, horns make sense to me! Maybe some day I'll even be
> able to tolerate A-7's! :^)
>
> I conclude that there are some faults to which one can become
> accustomed, and others which grow more and more irritating with time.
> I'll take the former over the latter any day.
>
> -Paul Joppa
Just wondering if anyone has explored the break-in curves? Let me
explain my thinking. Nothing is constant ( in this field at least).
So, if there is a break-in slope, how about the break-down slope?
I admit, I never tracked my old Wharfedales, because the foam surround
disolved while they were in storage! I have noticed that my ears are on
a break-down curve ( think they were broken in long ago...). So is there
an optimum point perhaps a millisecond or two, where the speakers are
"broken in" and then everything starts downhill (slowly) after that?
Sorry,
Joe Pledger
=========================================================================
From: "Le Cleac'h J.-M." <lecleach@cgi.ensmp.fr>
Subject: ear distortion (was C37-The FAQ's)
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:14:25 +0100 (MET)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n176
- --=====================_886162015==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 16:10 29/01/1998 -0600, you wrote:
>>Aha! You think that I am saying something about whether or not the
>>application of the glop works or, indeed, does anything. I am not. I
>>termed as 'ridiculous' a specific statement about the operation of
>>auditory transduction. For this process, there is much information and
>>the proposition offered is completely unfounded and at odds with present
>>data.
>So what you are saying is that all the "data" shows that sound that reaches
>the nerve inside the ear, after having gone through the mechanical parts
>of the ear is *completely* identical to the original sound before it entered
>the ear?
Hello,
Distortion created by our ear is a documented subject.
IMHO the main relevance for them is contained in the graph due to Neumann,
Stephen and Davis.
I scanned the graph and as it is only 10 koctets, I send it in attachment to
the whole list. (eardist.gif)
Hope this will clarify the present discussion.
Best regards,
Jean-Michel Le Cleac'h, Paris, France
- --=====================_886162015==_
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- --=====================_886162015==_--
=========================================================================
From: Info@visionunl.com
Subject: Earn FREE Gasoline and Long Distance !
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 02:45:40 -0600 (CST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n145
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******************************************************************
******************************************************************
TO BE REMOVED FROM OUR MAILING LIST, TYPE: Intrepid@ascella.net in
the (TO:) area and (REMOVE) in the subject area of a new E-mail
and send.
******************************************************************
=========================================================================
From: "Doc B." <bottlehead@silverlink.net>
Subject: ear openers at the VALVE meeting
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 10:55:40 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n268
Along with the ME2s I mention in another post, there were some other real
surprises at the meeting yesterday.
Tucker and I shot out several iterations of our soon to be released eXtreme
Audio parafeed preamp, and we think we have settled on the final details.
With the first beta unit going to LynnO. More info to come, with some
discretion, we ain't givin' away any secrets on this puppy. It's good,
really good, and *dead* quiet.
John Ott once again reminded us that homebrew can look far nicer than the
best commercial gear, as he demo'd a pair of 2 way 94 dB speaks based on a
Hi-Fi World design. The cabinets were stunning, with a beautiful curving
line separating the two types of wood used for the front baffle. They were
made to complement his amp, which was the one we showed on the VSAC homepage
last year.
The biggest surprise at the meeting still has me reeling.
Ed Fallon brought in a very cool 80 lb. stereo breadboard amp which used the
Valve Art VA5300Bs.
Holy s**t! That is a fabulous tube.
Ed had used the new big Hammond outputs, which sounded pretty OK, good bass,
a little closed off, but they were very green. We did a "field conversion"
to parafeed, using the Hammond trans primaries (46H) as the retard coils,
and a pair of Pinstripe trannies and 6 mfd oil caps.
The parafeed let the 5300s show what they could do, really opened up and
focused the sound, so well that Ed went home with them. The 5300s were
running at about the same point as my 52s (about 425V, 130mA), and seemed
equal to my VV52s power wise, but the VV52s were slurred and out of focus by
comparison. The 5300s seemed to combine the best qualities of the body and
bass control of the KR type tubes with the clarity, focus and black
background of 45s and 845s.
I had to be sure this was due to the 5300, so we plugged my 52s in in place
of the 5300s. It made Ed's amp sound essentially the same as mine, less
clean and focused, so it was definitely the 5300s vs. the 52s that made the
difference. BTW, this difference existed whether the 52 ran at 5V on the fil
or 6.3V
Just so's you don't think I'm spewing nonsense, I think LynnO and John
Tucker will back me up on these observations. Well done, Ed! Your amp and
the ME2s stole the show. The eleven or twelve folks who came by left saying
it was the best meeting so far this year.
VA5300Bs, highly recommended, gotta get me some...
I am told Steve at Angela sells the 5300s.
Hey Steve, can I get a discount now?
Doc B.
VALVE
coming soon - www.bottlehead.com
=========================================================================
From: "Lynn T. Olson" <lynno@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: ear openers at the VALVE meeting
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 12:54:28 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n269
>Just so's you don't think I'm spewing nonsense, I think LynnO and John
>Tucker will back me up on these observations. Well done, Ed! Your amp and
>the ME2s stole the show. The eleven or twelve folks who came by left saying
>it was the best meeting so far this year.
>
>VA5300Bs, highly recommended, gotta get me some...
>
>Doc B.
>VALVE
>coming soon - www.bottlehead.com
Yup. I concur. It was surprising ... the sight of the 1 by 3 foot board
being carried in by two guys prompted a lot of jokes. Likewise, nobody had
high hopes for a 6SN7 (input and driver direct-coupled), with mundane
RC-coupling between the driver and Chinese tube. (Both Dan and I had heard
some negative press on the sonics of Chinese graphite-plate 300B's.)
However, things got real quiet after the first few seconds of listening,
and there were a lot of amazed looks when the amp was field-converted to
parafeed with clips. Silky-smooth treble and midrange, and effortless
detail ... played loud too, with the 130mA current through the VA5300B's
being quite apparent. They motivated the ME2's and Whamos, *no problem*
What breathed life into what would have ordinarily have been a pretty
mundane circuit must have been the VA5300B's and the bank of trick caps,
which mostly filled the ample area of the breadboard. As the good Doc
mentioned in the previous post, the sonics combined the power reserves of
the KR tubes with the agility of the 45's and 845's ... and more than a
hint of the mono-plate 2A3's creamy, silky sound. If you weren't there,
this is all just jive, but that's what the Doc and I heard.
(BTW, Doc, please set aside 24 of those caps for me, and bring 'em down
with the preamp. There is life after Black Gates after all.)
Lynn T. Olson
E-mail: lynno@teleport.com
Ariel Speaker Page: http://www.teleport.com/~lynno/Ariel.htm
=========================================================================
From: "Doc B." <bottlehead@silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: ear openers at the VALVE meeting
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 08:31:43 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n269
Agree with the first point, the fil voltages are different.
As to the second point, my experience was that the tube was faster, more
concise and clean, and therefore more revealing of detail and giving better
focus than a VV52 running at the same op point (425V, 130mA) but with 6.3V
on the fil.
I know this goes against the general opinion, and I was very surprised to
hear the difference, having championed the VV52 and 32 myself for the last
year or so. I mean, I just published a design using the VV32BC about a month
ago.
Tucker has been off the KR tubes for a while, complaining of this slight
slurring and lack of focus, and has been going with the 45 amp we published
instead, preferring the same type speed and clarity from the 45 that the
5300 exhibited on Sunday.
I have been struggling with the 52 (various attempts at damping and
isolation of the tube and chassis) because I need the beans, and also
because the 45 is still a bit lightweight, even though having better bass in
that circuit than most. We both came away thinking (as did Lynn, I suspect)
that the 5300 was the best of both worlds, the speed and resolution was
there with no sacrifice in power or body.
Doc B.
VALVE
coming soon - www.bottlehead.com
- -----Original Message-----
From: J. Gordon Rankin <waudio@cinti.net>
To: joenet <sound@deliverator.io.com>
Date: Tuesday, May 05, 1998 8:34 AM
Subject: Re: ear openers at the VALVE meeting
>>VA5300Bs, highly recommended, gotta get me some...
>
>Gang,
>
>Remember two things about these tubes that I did not care for:
>
>1) This has a 2A 5V heater instead of the KR 6V heater
>2) The plate is graphite and therefore loses some of the detail compared
>to metal plate tubes.
>
>Gordon
>
>
>=======> Wavelength Audio <=======
>mailto:waudio@cinti.net
>http://www.wavelengthaudio.com
>ph.fx. 513-271-4186 USA
>
>
=========================================================================
From: "J. Gordon Rankin" <waudio@cinti.net>
Subject: Re: ear openers at the VALVE meeting
Date: Tue, 5 May 98 10:13:06 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n269
>VA5300Bs, highly recommended, gotta get me some...
Gang,
Remember two things about these tubes that I did not care for:
1) This has a 2A 5V heater instead of the KR 6V heater
2) The plate is graphite and therefore loses some of the detail compared
to metal plate tubes.
Gordon
=======> Wavelength Audio <=======
mailto:waudio@cinti.net
http://www.wavelengthaudio.com
ph.fx. 513-271-4186 USA
=========================================================================
From: "Lynn T. Olson" <lynno@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: ear openers at the VALVE meeting
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 14:44:46 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n270
>We both came away thinking (as did Lynn, I suspect)
>that the 5300 was the best of both worlds, the speed and resolution was
>there with no sacrifice in power or body.
>
>
>Doc B.
>VALVE
>coming soon - www.bottlehead.com
Still dunno whether it was the way-weird defibrillator caps (talk about
jump factor!!!) or the VA5300B, but direct comparison of the VV52B versus
the VA5300B (true, the VV52B was running at 5V filament, not entirely fair)
in the same amp, the VA5300B gave up nothing at all to the VV52B as far as
transparency was concerned. What was missing was a slight metallic clang,
which could have indeed have been greater microphonics in the KR tube. (The
Valve Arts have *very low* microphonics, lowest I've heard from any
300B-type tube.) Maybe microphonics are the difference? Certainly made me
think long and hard about a non-metallic chassis, something long
recommended by Stan Warren.
Lynn T. Olson
E-mail: lynno@teleport.com
Ariel Speaker Page: http://www.teleport.com/~lynno/Ariel.htm
=========================================================================
From: Yip Hin Fai Johari <hfyip@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: ear openers at the VALVE meeting
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 07:01:48 +0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n270
At 10:13 AM 5/5/98 -0500, J. Gordon Rankin wrote:
>>VA5300Bs, highly recommended, gotta get me some...
>
>Gang,
>
>Remember two things about these tubes that I did not care for:
>
>1) This has a 2A 5V heater instead of the KR 6V heater
>2) The plate is graphite and therefore loses some of the detail compared
>to metal plate tubes.
>
>Gordon
>
>
>=======> Wavelength Audio <=======
>mailto:waudio@cinti.net
>http://www.wavelengthaudio.com
>ph.fx. 513-271-4186 USA
I would gladly give up a bit of detail for more fuller bodied and less edgy
kind of sound.
On the whole, graphite plate gives a more relaxed sound.
Johari
=========================================================================
From: Grego Sanguinetti <grego@latticesemi.com>
Subject: Re: ear openers at the VALVE meeting
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:42:31 -0700 (PDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n271
> Gang,
>
> Remember two things about these tubes that I did not care for:
>
> 1) This has a 2A 5V heater instead of the KR 6V heater
In my amps I tested the VV52 at both 5v and 6v and found no spectral
difference. However, I am not pushing to maximum dissapation, in fact
a good margin under, so that could be an issue. In my build units, I
am in fact using a 5v filament transformer (though it is actually
running a bit high).
I did find the noise fractionally better at 5v.
> 2) The plate is graphite and therefore loses some of the detail compared
> to metal plate tubes.
>
> Gordon
Now here is a classic generality. Sometimes true, but I sure have
heard some graphite tubes (like 845s) amps that had alot of detail.
Enough that I wouldn't rule a tube out because of it.
- -grego
=========================================================================
From: Grego Sanguinetti <grego@latticesemi.com>
Subject: Re: ear openers at the VALVE meeting
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 15:48:41 -0700 (PDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n272
On Thu, 7 May 1998, evaguido wrote:
> >Now here is a classic generality. Sometimes true, but I sure have
> >heard some graphite tubes (like 845s) amps that had alot of detail.
> >Enough that I wouldn't rule a tube out because of it.
>
> And what about the 211 in an Ongaku; details everywhere around the graphite !
Yes Guido and also the 813 is a very detailed tube.
There are always exceptions.....
- -grego
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: ear openers at the VALVE meeting
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 19:23:50 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n272
>Now here is a classic generality. Sometimes true, but I sure have
>heard some graphite tubes (like 845s) amps that had alot of detail.
>Enough that I wouldn't rule a tube out because of it.
And what about the 211 in an Ongaku; details everywhere around the graphite !
Guido
>-grego
>
>
=========================================================================
From: "Ian McPhail" <i.mcphail@rmit.EDU.AU>
Subject: EAR site
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 10:30:42 +1000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n429
JoeNetters, hope this message gets through: www.ear-yoshino.com
Ian McPhail i.mcphail@rmit.edu.au
RMIT Chem and Met Eng Dept 110
GPO Box 2476V
Melbourne 3001
Australia
tel +61 3 9925 2408
fax +61 3 9925 3746
=========================================================================
From: RICHARD JONES <RJ0101@Sprynet.Com>
Subject: EAR V20
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:01:34 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n464
I was just wondering if anyone knows why they picked the 12AX7 instead of
other tubes.
This amp really intrigues me.. i wonder how it would sound with 5 7044 per
channel instead of 10? and just use another 7044 as a driver...
is there any problems with miller effect.... how about a 7044 OTL amp?
hehe..
my mind is thinking now...
Richard..
=========================================================================
From: Paul Joppa <pdj@ISDNseattle.net>
Subject: Re: EAR V20
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 23:00:31 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n465
RICHARD JONES wrote:
>
> I was just wondering if anyone knows why they picked the 12AX7 instead of
> other tubes....snip...
I was told that they tried several, especially the 12AU7, but the AX
sounded best so they went with it.
- -Paul Joppa
=========================================================================
From: "Peter A. Dinda" <pdinda@cs.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: EAR V20
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 10:29:27 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n467
My first reaction to the V20 was that it was a bizarre design. However, it
is quite amazing sounding - very neutral and transparent. What's the
thinking behind the design, anyway?
Peter August Dinda http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~pdinda pdinda@cs.cmu.edu
Doctoral Candidate, School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
=========================================================================
From: tubesguy@mail.execpc.com (Patrick Currie)
Subject: Re: EAR V20
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 11:57:39 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n467
>My first reaction to the V20 was that it was a bizarre design. However, it
>is quite amazing sounding - very neutral and transparent. What's the
>thinking behind the design, anyway?
>
>
>
>Peter August Dinda
Knowing a little bit about the designer, I'd suggest that there's a big
dollop of product differentiation going on, in addition to an apparent
desire to design and build a commercial product that relies on currently
produced "output" tubes. Saw it and heard it at VSAC. It's very nice
looking. - Pat
Pat Currie (tubesguy@execpc.com)
=========================================================================
From: "T. Loesch" <ezee_e@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: EAR V20
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 05:54:32 PST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n468
Hi all,
>>My first reaction to the V20 was that it was a bizarre design.
>>However, it is quite amazing sounding - very neutral and
>>transparent. What's the thinking behind the design, anyway?
>
>it is 20 pcs. of ECC83 in the output stage, that means, 10 each
>channel; I read this information in a German test report on that
>piece of gear.
Well, I looked a bit closer. Had a chat with Tim too.
I think half of his designs are simply based on the fact that he likes
to be different.
I heard part of the genesis of the EL509 SE Amp was the fact that he
tried 300B's and found he could not get much power out of one and they
where expensive (my Info on this comes however not directly from Mr.
deParavichini - so it might just be gossip....).
As for the V-20, it is a Push-Pull Design using as Hartmut said 10 ECC83
per channel as Output valves.
These are driven in permanent Class A2 with the Grids apparently
remaining positive all the Time. Driver is obviously a Cathode follower
and the Frontend has the usual splattering of Valves for Phase-Splitter
and so on.
From this I'd conclude that there is a fairly low HT present and that
the Output Valves are probably run quite hot....
On all occasions where I heard the V-20 I prefered the EL509 SE Amp
(809???) by a long distance. Tim disagreed heartily though....
Kind regards Thorsten.
======================================
e-mail:
Thorsten@tnt-audio.com
Visit TNT-Audio on the Web - the only advertising
free audio web-zine.
http://www.tnt-audio.com
======================================
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
From: Hartmut <Hartmut.Quaschik@mch.sni.de>
Subject: Re: EAR V20
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 14:02:46 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n468
Patrick Currie wrote:
>
> >My first reaction to the V20 was that it was a bizarre design. However, it
> >is quite amazing sounding - very neutral and transparent. What's the
> >thinking behind the design, anyway?
it is 20 pcs. of ECC83 in the output stage, that means, 10 each
channel; I read this information in a German test report on that
piece of gear.
regards,
Hartmut
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: EAR V20
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 18:52:49 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n469
At 14:02 26-10-98 +0100, Hartmut wrote:
>Patrick Currie wrote:
>>
>> >My first reaction to the V20 was that it was a bizarre design.
However, it
>> >is quite amazing sounding - very neutral and transparent. What's the
>> >thinking behind the design, anyway?
>
>it is 20 pcs. of ECC83 in the output stage, that means, 10 each
>channel; I read this information in a German test report on that
>piece of gear.
Tim likes designs deviating from what the whole world does. Paralleling
these tubes can be done because their high output impedance
Guido
>regards,
>Hartmut
>
>
=========================================================================
From: "Richard A. Francis" <rfranci@uoft03.utoledo.edu>
Subject: Re: EAR V20 and NOW Bob Danielak's EL509 amp article in GA
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 12:53:12 -0500 (EST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n467
On Sun, 25 Oct 1998, Peter A. Dinda wrote:
> My first reaction to the V20 was that it was a bizarre design. However, it
> is quite amazing sounding - very neutral and transparent. What's the
> thinking behind the design, anyway?
>
I had a conversation with Dan Meinwald, US rep for EAR, in which Dan said
something like "Tim (de P.) just likes to design something that says
"Screw you" to the cult-like religious types who maintain these
orthodoxies of tube circuits." Hope I'm not
misrepresenting/misremembering -- the conversation was a long time ago. I
think Tim sees that there are limitless ways to build good circuits, even
using non-traditional audio tubes and circuits, and likes to do just that.
He enjoys being the heterodox. Sorta like some of the designers on this
list. The EAR 509 and 519 seemed real strange when they first appeared
too, I'm told, because of the screen-drive and use of "TV tubes".
Hey that reminds me, aren't we way overdue to salute Bob Danielak's GA
article, "Direct Coupling the EL509"?
Nice going, Bob! Hats off!
Rick
=========================================================================
From: "Mark Donen" <soledadd@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 19:15:46 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n264
A7/A5 people, this has got to be the easiest tweak in the world:
30 ohm resistor in parallel to the compression driver. Maybe everyone knows
this, but it really takes the edge off the old buzzsaw.
Mark
=========================================================================
From: Steve Van Osdell <svanos@toast.net>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 19:57:16 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n264
I had a related idea the other day. We were talking recently about paiting
latex and sand on the outside of horns to deaden them. What about that
spray stuff they are using to spray bedliners inside of pickup trucks? It
builds up about a 1/4" coating and seems pretty 'deadening' to me,
especially if some sand were thrown in. What y'all think about that?
Steve
At 07:15 PM 4/29/98 -0400, you wrote:
>A7/A5 people, this has got to be the easiest tweak in the world:
>
>30 ohm resistor in parallel to the compression driver. Maybe everyone knows
>this, but it really takes the edge off the old buzzsaw.
>
>Mark
>
=========================================================================
From: dslagle@earthlink.net (Dave Slagle)
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 20:24:53 -0700 (PDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n264
>A7/A5 people, this has got to be the easiest tweak in the world:
>
>30 ohm resistor in parallel to the compression driver. Maybe everyone knows
>this, but it really takes the edge off the old buzzsaw.
>
>Mark
wouldn't this take the edge off by just reducing the output to the
offending driver???
they have the same mod to do to lowthers, toss a 20 ohm resistor across a
16 ohm driver to tame the nasty impedance curve, but you also toss away
almost 1/2 your power as heat through the resistor... has anyone out there
with a big tube amp (211, 845) ever tried this??? i tried it with a 45, and
at that level the output power is a bit too precious.... i don't imagine
50's to be too different power-wise, maybe a VV-30 (4X the power) and a
matching swamping R would be a good compromise???
dave
=========================================================================
From: Steve Van Osdell <svanos@toast.net>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 22:05:29 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n264
>> I doubt if the horn could ring when buried in
loose, dry sand.
Right, and I doubt if he could move it either!
Steve
=========================================================================
From: SSell71096 <SSell71096@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 00:07:30 EDT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n264
Ask Bill Gaw about his horns!
>>> I doubt if the horn could ring when buried in
loose, dry sand.
Right, and I doubt if he could move it either! <
=========================================================================
From: "william gaw." <whg@tiac.net>
Subject: Re: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:10:09 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n264
Both of you are right. The six foot bass horns consist of 3/4 inch MDF horn,
with a 3/3 in thichk baltic birch cabinet wit 3/4 inch spacers between, with
the spacwe filled with sand. They probably weigh 600 lbs each, so are a real
dog to move, but what sound. I can't think of anything so cheap as sand
which does such a great job of taming resonances. By the way, I didn't fill
them until I had them positioned properly, and don't plan on moving them
until the room caves in.
By the way, I have a partially completed third bass horn(horn itself without
outer casing, in my garage for free if anybody has a use for it. Designed
for two Electrovoice 12 drivers- 106 db/watt, 55- 400 hz, with a 12 db lower
rolloff. Still plenty of power down to the 20's. I originally had the idea
of using three horns, for a central channel, but found it to be slight
overkill. Anyway, if somebody wants the horn, come and pick it up- it's in
two parts, not bolted together yet, so should be fairly easy to load into a
pickup. Bill Gaw
- -----Original Message-----
From: SSell71096 <SSell71096@aol.com>
To: svanos@toast.net <svanos@toast.net>; sound@lists.io.com
<sound@lists.io.com>
Date: Thursday, April 30, 1998 12:22 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
>Ask Bill Gaw about his horns!
>
>>>> I doubt if the horn could ring when buried in
>loose, dry sand.
>
>Right, and I doubt if he could move it either! <
>
=========================================================================
From: bill gardner <wg44929@navix.net>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:04:59 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n264
>>>
>A friend of mine made a box to enclose all but the mouth of an Altec horn.
>There was some kind of opening on the rear of the box to take leads
>through and to pour in sand. I doubt if the horn could ring when buried in
>loose, dry sand.
>
>
>Dr. Peter Campbell (peterca@ento.csiro.au)
>Div. Entomology, C.S.I.R.O. Ph.61-2-62464053 or -62464158 (w)
>Box 1700 Canberra A.C.T. 2601 61-2-62516213 (h)
>Australia 61-2-62464173 (fax)
>
>
>Hi Dr Campbell : Let me be the first to say its great to see you back .
Bill Gardner
=========================================================================
From: peterca@ento.csiro.au
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:45:58 +1000 (EST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n264
>I had a related idea the other day. We were talking recently about paiting
>latex and sand on the outside of horns to deaden them. What about that
>spray stuff they are using to spray bedliners inside of pickup trucks? It
>builds up about a 1/4" coating and seems pretty 'deadening' to me,
>especially if some sand were thrown in. What y'all think about that?
>
>Steve
>
>At 07:15 PM 4/29/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>A7/A5 people, this has got to be the easiest tweak in the world:
>>
>>30 ohm resistor in parallel to the compression driver. Maybe everyone knows
>>this, but it really takes the edge off the old buzzsaw.
>>
>>Mark
>>
A friend of mine made a box to enclose all but the mouth of an Altec horn.
There was some kind of opening on the rear of the box to take leads
through and to pour in sand. I doubt if the horn could ring when buried in
loose, dry sand.
Dr. Peter Campbell (peterca@ento.csiro.au)
Div. Entomology, C.S.I.R.O. Ph.61-2-62464053 or -62464158 (w)
Box 1700 Canberra A.C.T. 2601 61-2-62516213 (h)
Australia 61-2-62464173 (fax)
=========================================================================
From: Grego Sanguinetti <grego@latticesemi.com>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:48:56 -0700 (PDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n265
> >I had a related idea the other day. We were talking recently about paiting
> >latex and sand on the outside of horns to deaden them. What about that
> >spray stuff they are using to spray bedliners inside of pickup trucks? It
> >builds up about a 1/4" coating and seems pretty 'deadening' to me,
> >especially if some sand were thrown in. What y'all think about that?
I tried it. If you add the sand it works fine, though not any better than
the latex and more expensive. By itself it works ok but not anywhere as good
as the sand and paint. You need mass. Mass is the key. The sand enriched latex
looks much better because it is more consistant texture, not as lumpy as
the undercoat type materials.
The sand in the box thing works too, but not any better than the sand/paint
and is ALOT more heavy.
By the way, this heavy deadening (don't forget to also cut the webs) really
smooths out the response curve, which in turns takes away some the effective
"beaming". But it is still a 511, all said and done, not a perfect horn by
any means.
- -grego
=========================================================================
From: Thomas Danley <Tom@ppci.com>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:03:27 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n265
Dave Slagle wrote:
>
> >A7/A5 people, this has got to be the easiest tweak in the world:
> >
> >30 ohm resistor in parallel to the compression driver. Maybe everyone knows
> >this, but it really takes the edge off the old buzzsaw.
> >
> >Mark
>
> wouldn't this take the edge off by just reducing the output to the
> offending driver???
>
> they have the same mod to do to lowthers, toss a 20 ohm resistor across a
> 16 ohm driver to tame the nasty impedance curve, but you also toss away
> almost 1/2 your power as heat through the resistor...
Recall that a resistor in parallel will have no effect on the response
of the driver when it is driven by an impedance considerably lower than
the driver it self and little effect when DF=1. The resistor does help
the crossover network however as it is intended to be terminated with an
unchanging impedance, perhaps a better fix is a series R,L,C tank
circuit which in parallel with the driver, eliminates the resonant peak.
While a peak in the impedance indicates an electromechanical resonance
and is transparent to the reproduction, other resonances can have a
profound effect on the sound. Someone discussed a latex paint and sand
damping fix for the ringing of metalic horns a clever idea and
especially usefull if the horn is not mounted to a baffle board (which
does supply some damping. It is worth remembering that the Altec 311,
511 and 811 (to mention a few) horns are all intended to be mounted on
an acoustic boundry in order to go down to there respective cut-offs and
not having the boundry (baffle board) means there are acoustic
resonances present, near the low cutoff, that shouldn't be there.
Do a lot of you guys have 511 horns? I have one in the garage If there
is any consensious I would be willing to measure it and derive the
proper network. I have the following 1" drivers for testing.
The original alnico Altec driver
a new ceramic Altec 909 8A
a JBL 2426 h
a JBL Le85 t
a Emilar 175
Best Regards,
Thomas Danley
ITC
=========================================================================
From: Richard C Nevill <rnevill@is.dal.ca>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:16:35 -0300 (ADT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n265
I think there is also a spray version of Dynamat type stuff that i
remember from either the MCM cat. or Parts Express cat.
On Wed, 29 Apr 1998, Steve Van Osdell wrote:
> I had a related idea the other day. We were talking recently about paiting
> latex and sand on the outside of horns to deaden them. What about that
> spray stuff they are using to spray bedliners inside of pickup trucks? It
> builds up about a 1/4" coating and seems pretty 'deadening' to me,
> especially if some sand were thrown in. What y'all think about that?
>
> Steve
>
>
=========================================================================
From: "Mark Donen" <soledadd@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:48:26 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n265
Tom Danley wrote:
a better fix is a series R,L,C tank
> circuit which in parallel with the driver, eliminates the resonant peak.
> While a peak in the impedance indicates an electromechanical resonance
> and is transparent to the reproduction, other resonances can have a
> profound effect on the sound.
> Do a lot of you guys have 511 horns? I have one in the garage If there
> is any consensious I would be willing to measure it and derive the
> proper network. I have the following 1" drivers for testing.
> The original alnico Altec driver
> a new ceramic Altec 909 8A
> a JBL 2426 h
> a JBL Le85 t
> a Emilar 175
>
This would be very interesting. Yes I do have 511 horns as do a number of
others (Grego, Bill Gardner and Roscoe for sure). If the reasonant peak is
common to compression drivers in general (I have 806As -- what is the
"original driver you have?") , from this data, a general guide to
compression driver LCRs and can be figured out which would be very
valuable.
Regards,
Mark
=========================================================================
From: Grego Sanguinetti <grego@latticesemi.com>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:15:38 -0700 (PDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n265
On Thu, 30 Apr 1998 Dale.Simon@ps.net wrote:
> Tom Danley wrote:
>
> "I have one in the garage If there is any consensious I would be
> willing to measure it and derive the proper network."
>
> I would be most interested in your results. I use the 802D
> driver with the stock crossover. I would someday like to
> improve on that. So if you get the time, please keep us posted.
My guess is that a heavily damped/modified horn would have
a different resonance pattern and would need unique
electrical compensation.
- -grego
=========================================================================
From: Dale.Simon@ps.net
Subject: Re[2]: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:20:00 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n265
Tom Danley wrote:
"I have one in the garage If there is any consensious I would be
willing to measure it and derive the proper network."
I would be most interested in your results. I use the 802D
driver with the stock crossover. I would someday like to
improve on that. So if you get the time, please keep us posted.
Dale
=========================================================================
From: "Mark Donen" <soledadd@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:01:32 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n265
If you take a look at both the Altec and JBL pro sites, you can see that
Altec & JBL are going to a lot of trouble to smooth the response of their
compression drivers, both in theater and studio systems (in the case of
JBL) with the use of digital domain active crossover/eq. In fact, looking
back to some of the older JBL stuff, they have had active crossovers with
interchangable crossover cards for specific drivers and horns for a long
time (since the 70s?). Issues about whether digital domain crossovers and
eq are the right thing for a good musical result aside, it is clear to see
that unEQed and/or non-notch filtered compression drivers are things of the
distant past even in pro audio. I think, not that it has really been a
point of contention on the list, that LCR filters and/or eq are more than
merely optional niceties in an music optimized horn system. They are the
only way you are going to get a mid/hi horn/driver to work right for hifi
- -- unless you roll the thing off prematurely and roll in to a tweeter.
Rolling over to a tweeter is unnecessary at home where we can afford to
"loose" Spl for the sake of even response. The latter approach (horn to
tweeter) may bring benefits, depending on the tweeter used, of much better
HF dispersion around the room. There is no question that my 511B/806s have
a laser beam width of hf dispersion and no amount of shaping will do
anything to that.
J-M LeCleac'h mentioned awhile back that in Paris he went to a demo of a 4
way horn system with an active digital crossover taken from the pro audio
world (I forget the brand). It would be interesting to know if signal
processing was applied to get the system flat. Switching the active eq in
and out (if it was done) must have had an extreme effect.
Any thoughts?
Mark
=========================================================================
From: "Carl Landey" <cdlandey@aav.com>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 22:10:24 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n265
My 811's w/ 802C's were quite noticably less "beamy" on the highs
when I scraped off the nickle-plating at the wire contact points
inside the binding posts (both on the cabinet posts and on the
compression driver).
=========================================================================
From: davidbarnett@aristotle.net (David Barnett)
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 00:19:48 GMT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n265
On Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:01:32 -0400, "Mark Donen"
<soledadd@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>J-M LeCleac'h mentioned awhile back that in Paris he went to a demo of a 4
>way horn system with an active digital crossover taken from the pro audio
>world (I forget the brand).
BSS OmniDrive or OmniDrive Compact.
- --dnb
=========================================================================
From: Dale.Simon@ps.net
Subject: Re[4]: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 9:24:00 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n265
Grego wrote:
My guess is that a heavily damped/modified horn would have
a different resonance pattern and would need unique
electrical compensation.
- -grego
So, are you suggesting that after one is done modifiing his
horn, he should measure it in order to design suitable
compensation network to achieve the desired results? Is this
difficult?
Dale
=========================================================================
From: Grego Sanguinetti <grego@latticesemi.com>
Subject: Re: Re[4]: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 09:37:08 -0700 (PDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n266
On Fri, 1 May 1998 Dale.Simon@ps.net wrote:
> Grego wrote:
>
> My guess is that a heavily damped/modified horn would have
> a different resonance pattern and would need unique
> electrical compensation.
>
> -grego
>
>
> So, are you suggesting that after one is done modifiing his
> horn, he should measure it in order to design suitable
> compensation network to achieve the desired results? Is this
> difficult?
Yes. but so far I am just using the stock cross over. I installed
bypass sockets in order to biamp so I didn't spend any energy
fussing with the crossovers. But I haven't gotten around to the
biamping rig either....
No. although it does require some measuring equipment.
- -grego
=========================================================================
From: "Lynn T. Olson" <lynno@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 14:44:48 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n266
> ... it is clear to see
>that unEQed and/or non-notch filtered compression drivers are things of the
>distant past even in pro audio. I think, not that it has really been a
>point of contention on the list, that LCR filters and/or eq are more than
>merely optional niceties in an music optimized horn system. They are the
>only way you are going to get a mid/hi horn/driver to work right for hifi ...
>
>Any thoughts?
>
>Mark
I must be really out of fashion these days. I try to select drivers that
don't require equalization in the first place.
Lynn T. Olson
E-mail: lynno@teleport.com
Ariel Speaker Page: http://www.teleport.com/~lynno/Ariel.htm
=========================================================================
From: "Lynn T. Olson" <lynno@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 17:13:46 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n266
>Lynn T. Olson wrote: I must be really out of fashion these days. I try to
>select drivers that
>> don't require equalization in the first place.
>
>Hi Lynn,
>
>questions: the crossover in your Ariel speaker is adjustable to taste isn't
>it? Is that eq? It has impedance correction, is that eq? Isn't a crossover
>slope itself eq? Afterall you don't use Lowthers? Even cabinet design for
>Lowthers or any speaker is about eq. Or am I way off base?
>
>Regards,
>
>Mark
Well, let's just say that when the Vifa 5.5" driver rolls off by itself at
5kHz, without any peaking, that is very very unusual. When you look at the
curves for most drivers (horns, direct radiators, etc), what you usually
see is one or more peaks in the 3 to 5kHz region. For Kevlar and
metal-diaphragm drivers, there may be just one peak ... for Kevlar, it's
about 2 to 5dB high, for metal (which has essentially no self-damping) it
is around 5 to 12dB high (huge!). This is the *best* case to have only one
peak; more typically, with carbon-fiber or rigid paper, there are multiple
peaks starting from 2 to 5 kHz and extending all the way out to 20kHz or
more.
If there is just one peak, a notch filter works just fine as long as the Q
isn't too ferocious ... the problem with high-Q peaks is that each system
will require individual notch tuning to compensate for production
variations in the drivers and crossover parts. Worse, the fine-tuning
really does require instrumentation. Blow a driver, it has to go back to
the factory to re-EQ the notch filter for the new driver ... no field
replacements.
For multiple peaks, the picture is worse, especially for carbon-fiber/paper
cones, which have a characteristic double-peak structure with the twin
peaks being about 100 to 400Hz apart ... this gets pretty ugly pretty fast
in terms of correction requirements. With three or more peaks, all you can
do is dump it fast, which is where 24dB/octave Linkwitz/Riley filters come
in. A careful listener will still hear the peaks, though ... in my
experience peaks are audible even if they are 20dB below the main curve.
The most sensitive objective measure of resonance is the group-delay vs.
freq graph, or the waterfall 3D graph, taking special note of any long
ridges in the time domain. Subjectively, the most sensitive measure is
pink-noise, which is 6 to 20dB more revealing of resonances than music.
(First used by D.E.L. Shorter of the BBC for subjective assessments as
early as the late Fifties.) The drawback of pink-noise is that it conceals
dips and tells nothing about IM distortion.
Ideally, the corrective EQ should be correct in both time and freq domains.
This is possible as long as the peak remains minimum-phase; however, when
the driver is really blowing its cookies and breaking up badly, it then
goes non-minimum-phase, and any attempt at correction is unwise. No amount
of EQ can fix cone breakup, which by definition is a region of very high IM
distortion. I've yet to see an EQ circuit, digital or otherwise, that can
remove the distortion from cone breakup.
There's a big subjective element here as well; we all have very different
subjective tolerances for driver resonances. Since I received my training
back when the BBC school was in the ascendent (early Seventies), I am very
sensitive to driver coloration, and probably less picky about phase
distortion and IM distortion. Since no known technology "does it all", each
one of us has to choose between lowest IM, lowest driver resonance, lowest
pulse distortion, and difficult-to-measure subjective qualities. Until some
clever guy comes up with wideband drivers that have masses equal to the
density of air, we'll be dealing with these kinds of tradeoffs. (Yes, I
heard a Plasmatronics at the 1979 CES. Best tweeter there is, if you don't
mind filling up a helium tank every month.)
Since my first commercial design for Audionics in 1974 was the TLM-200 (a
four-way TL with a 54-element (!) crossover), rest assured I'm done my time
with tricky notch filters and heavy-handed EQ. I try to minimize that stuff
as much as possible these days ... even so my crossover designs still come
out more complex than audiophile designs in the mainstream. Oh well.
Lynn T. Olson
E-mail: lynno@teleport.com
Ariel Speaker Page: http://www.teleport.com/~lynno/Ariel.htm
=========================================================================
From: "Mark Donen" <soledadd@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 18:01:35 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n266
Lynn T. Olson wrote: I must be really out of fashion these days. I try to
select drivers that
> don't require equalization in the first place.
Hi Lynn,
questions: the crossover in your Ariel speaker is adjustable to taste isn't
it? Is that eq? It has impedance correction, is that eq? Isn't a crossover
slope itself eq? Afterall you don't use Lowthers? Even cabinet design for
Lowthers or any speaker is about eq. Or am I way off base?
Regards,
Mark
=========================================================================
From: "Mark Donen" <soledadd@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 21:15:18 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n266
Lynn Olson wrote:
even so my crossover designs still come
> out more complex than audiophile designs in the mainstream. Oh well.
I was gonna say Lynn, you have both a Zobel and a LCR in your networks! I
am certainly not planning a heavy handed eq of the 511/806. I wanted to go
first order with a couple of resistors, but now its clear why that just
wont work. The best option would probably be active xo and eq (same thing)
and then a passive LCR network before the driver. Seems like eq is a dirty
word in hifi... but I am sure you could get a better result if done
intelligently.
Best,
Mark
=========================================================================
From: Thomas Danley <Tom@ppci.com>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 22:45:26 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n266
Lynn T. Olson wrote:
snip>>
When you look at the
> curves for most drivers (horns, direct radiators, etc), what you usually
> see is one or more peaks in the 3 to 5kHz region. For Kevlar and
> metal-diaphragm drivers, there may be just one peak ... for Kevlar, it's
> about 2 to 5dB high, for metal (which has essentially no self-damping) it
> is around 5 to 12dB high (huge!). This is the *best* case to have only one
> peak; more typically, with carbon-fiber or rigid paper, there are multiple
> peaks starting from 2 to 5 kHz and extending all the way out to 20kHz or
> more.
>
> If there is just one peak, a notch filter works just fine as long as the Q
> isn't too ferocious ...
There are more to the peaks than meet the eye. Generally (for the
direct radiator) one is into the inductive roll off part of the drivers
frequency response when you reach the first of the radiator resonant
modes. The inductive roll off can be thought of as "where it ought to
be" and the magnitude of the resonance over that (inductive roll
off)level can be thought of as acoustic gain in the radiator at that
frequency. If you plot the inductive roll off and find the magnitude of
this acoustic gain, it is not too uncommon to find much larger values
than the 5 - 12dB mentioned above.
Large peaks like these produce two unavoidable and uncorrectable side
effects. All loudspeaker motors have nonlinearity (normally from several
sources and are level dependant).
Lets say one has a driver with a 12 dB resonant peak at 3 kHZ and a 24
dB/oct
or even a 96dB/oct crossover at 1.5 Khz. When the driver is fed a 1 KHZ
signal
the driver's third harmonic is magnified by the acoustic gain (16X)
12dB.
Similarly the 4th harmonic of 750 is likewise magnified and so on.
You'll notice the crosover steepness or frequency can change the
harmonic magnification the resonance produces. With sub woofers, the
added difficulty exists that the ears decreasing sensitivity with lower
frequencies makes the distortion spectrum even more audible. This can be
seen looking at the famous "Flecher-Munson" curves or the
more recient Robinson-Dadson curves. What can be seen is that at 20 HZ
for example, your threshold of
hearing is about 75 DB where as at 60 HZ (the third harmonic) the
threshold of audibility is about 40 DB. This means that about a 2% third
harmonic has the same aparent loudness as the fundimental OUCH!!.
As the Dolby paper on subwoofer performance points out, it is very
difficult to make a woofer with "inaudible distortion" (they found no
examples of conventional drivers) that satisfied the requirments and
also very difficult to keep up with your ears declining sensitivity
(requiring even more displacement) as the frequency goes down.
The situation is even worse when there are high Q resonances in the pass
band of the system. The "high Q" part means that in addition to a
significant acoustic gain at that frequency, it takes time to develop
and decay.
Where Lynn mentioned "ridges" in a waterfall display , this is the
decay, sound continues to come from the driver even after the signal is
off.
While high Q peaks can be "EQ'd" flat with a noise signal, it doesn't
really fix the problem as EQ doesn't correct for the time part of the
resonance.
So far as the 511 horn/driver, I'm curious to see how the different
drivers measure, how different the le85 horn/lense compare and see if
any passive EQ might or mechanical damping improve the response,
waterfall plots or if impedance compensation is usefull so far as the
crossover is concerned. I had some speakers that had 511's in the early
70's
so I have sort of a "softspot" and sort of for horns in general I
guess..
Best Regards,
Thomas Danley
=========================================================================
From: bill gardner <wg44929@navix.net>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 08:41:32 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n266
>heard a Plasmatronics at the 1979 CES. Best tweeter there is, if you don't
>mind filling up a helium tank every month.)
>
>
>
>Lynn T. Olson
Hi Mr Olson : Would you please explain more about the Plasmatronics
Tweeter, and how it uses Helium to produce
sound waves ? TIA Bill Gardner
=========================================================================
From: bill gardner <wg44929@navix.net>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 22:00:58 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n266
At 09:15 PM 5/1/98 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Lynn Olson wrote:
>
>even so my crossover designs still come
>> out more complex than audiophile designs in the mainstream. Oh well.
>
>I was gonna say Lynn, you have both a Zobel and a LCR in your networks! I
>am certainly not planning a heavy handed eq of the 511/806. I wanted to go
>first order with a couple of resistors, but now its clear why that just
>wont work. The best option would probably be active xo and eq (same thing)
>and then a passive LCR network before the driver. Seems like eq is a dirty
>word in hifi... but I am sure you could get a better result if done
>intelligently.
>
>Best,
>
>Mark
Mark you are on the right track my man .
In my always humble opinion :<) ... after 3 1/2 years of hard work , lots
of different trial and error approaches, and plenty of help from some of
the people on this list (Thanks everyone ) I have to say that I agree with
what Joe Roberts stated in a fax to me a couple of years ago --- CROSSOVERS
KILL THE MUSIC ---
The only way to go , if you want to have a true ultra fi system is to
BI-AMP , using a active electronic crossover (Thanks JC you are da man
)also I want to add this cool stuff, ain't CHEAP . AS some of you say ,just
my 2 cents . Please no flames . Much much Later I'm like cutting a trail
out a here . Bill Gardner
PS Remember if your trying to be a speaker manufacture , you'll
starve if you don't supply the consumer with a box that uses passive
crossovers , they are not going to work as hard at all this as we do , they
will not buy separate bass amps , cables , interconnects , electronic cross
overs , let alone build the stuff from scratch . Thanks
=========================================================================
From: "Lynn T. Olson" <lynno@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 11:17:54 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n267
>I was gonna say Lynn, you have both a Zobel and a LCR in your networks! I
>am certainly not planning a heavy handed eq of the 511/806. I wanted to go
>first order with a couple of resistors, but now its clear why that just
>wont work. The best option would probably be active xo and eq (same thing)
>and then a passive LCR network before the driver. Seems like eq is a dirty
>word in hifi... but I am sure you could get a better result if done
>intelligently.
>
>Best,
>
>Mark
Well, it really depends on your tolerance for coloration. In the Ariel, I
use a notch filter to correct a 1dB deviation at 1.5kHz in the tweeter
rolloff. This is pretty small potatoes by the standards of the prosound
world, but the notch filter straightens out the inter-driver phase angle in
the crossover region, thus improving the image quality.
Correcting a horn to this degree of smoothness might be a tough proposition
... I'm not sure it can be done, or would even be desirable. There's such a
thing as over-correcting a loudspeaker; where that fine line lies is a
subjective matter. My own feeling is that one way or another, the basic
character of the drivers always comes through, and much of the art of
speaker design is deciding what kind of character in the drivers matches
your own taste.
Lynn T. Olson
E-mail: lynno@teleport.com
Ariel Speaker Page: http://www.teleport.com/~lynno/Ariel.htm
=========================================================================
From: "Lynn T. Olson" <lynno@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 11:34:27 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n267
>Hi Mr Olson : Would you please explain more about the Plasmatronics
>Tweeter, and how it uses Helium to produce
>sound waves ? TIA Bill Gardner
The designer was a plasma physicist at Los Alamos Labs (yes, he was a bomb
designer) and in his spare time he and his friends at the Labs wanted to
mess with hi-fi. Being a plasma guy, he was well aware of the drawbacks of
ionizing air (as used in the DuKane Ionivac and the Magnat), which of
course are toxic levels of ozone and nitrous oxide.
Dr. Hill side-stepped the problem by introducing an external source of
helium (the aforementioned tank, which was stashed in a recess in the
subwoofer cabinet), RF heating the helium to ionization (it glowed
purple-blue, neat color), then modulating the small gas cloud by an
electrostatic charge (similar to an electrostat). The full name of the
speaker was the Hill Plasmatronic, perhaps a patent search focussing on the
late 1970's could yield results.
Anyway, it was a big-ass dynamic speaker (with pretty mediocre dynamic
drivers), *but* it had what for all the world like a captive Dyna Stereo 70
up on top in a cage, and magically enough, a small glowing sphere of gas in
the middle of the cage, maybe about 1" across. Yes, the sphere pulsed and
glowed with the music, and the Hill folks dimmed the lights so we could get
the full effect. Treble? The best I've heard ... hyper-fast,
distortionless, etc etc. Not surprising, considering the ruler-flat
response to 100kHz plus, distortion under 0.1%, omnidirectional response,
etc. No electrostat or horn has ever come anywhere near what the
Plasmatronics could do. But that helium tank!
This was in 1979 at the WCES ... hmmm, maybe a sneak preview of Star Wars
technology. Too bad out of all those billions they didn't set aside
0.00001% for better sound.
Lynn T. Olson
E-mail: lynno@teleport.com
Ariel Speaker Page: http://www.teleport.com/~lynno/Ariel.htm
=========================================================================
From: Roscoe Primrose <roscoe@aiko.com>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 20:35:25 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n267
bill gardner wrote:
> At 09:15 PM 5/1/98 -0400, you wrote:
> >
> >Lynn Olson wrote:
> >
>
Snip...
> Mark you are on the right track my man .
> In my always humble opinion :<) ... after 3 1/2 years of hard work , lots
> of different trial and error approaches, and plenty of help from some of
> the people on this list (Thanks everyone ) I have to say that I agree with
> what Joe Roberts stated in a fax to me a couple of years ago --- CROSSOVERS
> KILL THE MUSIC ---
> The only way to go , if you want to have a true ultra fi system is to
> BI-AMP , using a active electronic crossover (Thanks JC you are da man
> )also I want to add this cool stuff, ain't CHEAP . AS some of you say ,just
> my 2 cents . Please no flames . Much much Later I'm like cutting a trail
> out a here . Bill Gardner
I'd have to disagree there... It's not crossovers that kill the music, it's
crossovers with ATTENUATION which kill the music. If your LF drivers can keep
up with your HF drivers, then there's nothing wrong with a crossover instead of
bi-amping. And yes, I've tried it both ways.
> PS Remember if your trying to be a speaker manufacture , you'll
> starve if you don't supply the consumer with a box that uses passive
> crossovers , they are not going to work as hard at all this as we do , they
> will not buy separate bass amps , cables , interconnects , electronic cross
> overs , let alone build the stuff from scratch . Thanks
- --
Roscoe Primrose
- -- mailto:roscoe@aiko.com -- http://www.aiko.com/roscoe --
"Once in a while you get shown the light
In the strangest of places if you look at it right." Robert Hunter
=========================================================================
From: "Daniel J. Marshall" <danmarshall@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 21:37:56 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n267
bill gardner wrote:
>
> This all started when I said----
>
> > Mark you are on the right track my man .
> > In my always humble opinion :<) ... after 3 1/2 years of hard work , lots
> > of different trial and error approaches, and plenty of help from some of
> > the people on this list (Thanks everyone ) I have to say that I agree with
> > what Joe Roberts stated in a fax to me a couple of years ago --- CROSSOVERS
> > KILL THE MUSIC ---
> > The only way to go , if you want to have a true ultra fi system is to
> > BI-AMP , using a active electronic crossover (Thanks JC you are da man
> > )also I want to add this cool stuff, ain't CHEAP . AS some of you say ,just
> > my 2 cents .
>
> Roscoe then said--------
> I'd have to disagree there... It's not crossovers that kill the music, it's
> crossovers with ATTENUATION which kill the music. If your LF drivers can keep
> up with your HF drivers, then there's nothing wrong with a crossover
> instead of
> bi-amping. And yes, I've tried it both ways.
> I guess I don't understand this. Given that a horn/driver reportedly
sounds better when it is driven by a source impedance equal to its own
rated impedance, if the attenuator is a T Pad, which keeps the impedance
constant at all settings, then why would it destroy the sound? Perhaps
attenuation with an L pad, pot or rheostat would affect the sound. I
suspect that it would. Alternatively, a resistive divider configured
such that its impedance is equal to the driver impedance (on both sides)
then I don't see how this could screw the sound either. Of
course biamping could improve the sound by operating the amplfier at a
lower drive level and also w/o having the hf ride on top of a large bass
signal. Anyway, I am not questioning whether biamp would sound better,
rather why horn attenuation, if done properly, degrades the sound over a
non-attenuated passive system.
Dan Marshall
=========================================================================
From: bill gardner <wg44929@navix.net>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 09:29:00 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n267
This all started when I said----
> Mark you are on the right track my man .
> In my always humble opinion :<) ... after 3 1/2 years of hard work , lots
> of different trial and error approaches, and plenty of help from some of
> the people on this list (Thanks everyone ) I have to say that I agree with
> what Joe Roberts stated in a fax to me a couple of years ago --- CROSSOVERS
> KILL THE MUSIC ---
> The only way to go , if you want to have a true ultra fi system is to
> BI-AMP , using a active electronic crossover (Thanks JC you are da man
> )also I want to add this cool stuff, ain't CHEAP . AS some of you say ,just
> my 2 cents .
Roscoe then said--------
I'd have to disagree there... It's not crossovers that kill the music, it's
crossovers with ATTENUATION which kill the music. If your LF drivers can keep
up with your HF drivers, then there's nothing wrong with a crossover
instead of
bi-amping. And yes, I've tried it both ways.
Than Bill said-----
I thought about what Roscoe said and have this question .... What really
world class drivers , woofer... mid ... amd tweeter can you put together
with all the same efficiencies ( 1W 1db ) with a 1 2 3 or 4 way passive
crossover that will perform like say the Focal audiom , ATC mid and Stage
or Seqquerra ribbon in a bi amped configuration ? Just curious and still
learning. Thanks Bill Gardner
=========================================================================
From: "william gaw." <whg@tiac.net>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 08:30:23 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n268
I have to agree with Bill. I tried for a year through experimentat using an
IMP system, to get a passive crossover that sounded great with my horns,
both the Edgar originals, and the Edgar round horns with my 6 ft straight
bass horns. No matter what caps, inductors and resistors I used, and no
matter how close I came to a straight frequency curve, each time I could get
one of these three out of the system, it seemed to sound better(less veiled,
faster, and better sound stage.
When I went with active crossovers(Marchand ss and tube), with
biamping(Electraprint VV30B units, the music was glorious, even though I was
going through 8 extra tubes and their various caps and resistors. I don't
know whether it was the removal of the large signal caps and inductors, or
the intimacy of the amps to the speakers, but I am sold that active
crossovers and multiple amps are the way to go. I think the only reason
speaker makers still go with passive systems, is their ease and lower cost
for the consumers.
- -----Original Message-----
From: bill gardner <wg44929@navix.net>
To: sound@deliverator.io.com <sound@deliverator.io.com>
Date: Sunday, May 03, 1998 10:44 PM
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
>This all started when I said----
>
>> Mark you are on the right track my man .
>> In my always humble opinion :<) ... after 3 1/2 years of hard work , lots
>> of different trial and error approaches, and plenty of help from some of
>> the people on this list (Thanks everyone ) I have to say that I agree
with
>> what Joe Roberts stated in a fax to me a couple of years ago ---
CROSSOVERS
>> KILL THE MUSIC ---
>> The only way to go , if you want to have a true ultra fi system is to
>> BI-AMP , using a active electronic crossover (Thanks JC you are da man
>> )also I want to add this cool stuff, ain't CHEAP . AS some of you say
,just
>> my 2 cents .
>
>Roscoe then said--------
>I'd have to disagree there... It's not crossovers that kill the music,
it's
>crossovers with ATTENUATION which kill the music. If your LF drivers can
keep
>up with your HF drivers, then there's nothing wrong with a crossover
>instead of
>bi-amping. And yes, I've tried it both ways.
>
>Than Bill said-----
>I thought about what Roscoe said and have this question .... What really
>world class drivers , woofer... mid ... amd tweeter can you put together
>with all the same efficiencies ( 1W 1db ) with a 1 2 3 or 4 way passive
>crossover that will perform like say the Focal audiom , ATC mid and Stage
>or Seqquerra ribbon in a bi amped configuration ? Just curious and still
>learning. Thanks Bill Gardner
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
=========================================================================
From: Roscoe Primrose <roscoe@aiko.com>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 09:30:38 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n268
Daniel J. Marshall wrote:
> >> I have to say that I agree with
> > > what Joe Roberts stated in a fax to me a couple of years ago ---
CROSSOVERS
> > > KILL THE MUSIC ---
> > > The only way to go , if you want to have a true ultra fi system is
to
> > > BI-AMP , using a active electronic crossover (Thanks JC you are da
man
> > > )also I want to add this cool stuff, ain't CHEAP . AS some of you
say ,just
> > > my 2 cents .
> >
> > Roscoe then said--------
> > I'd have to disagree there... It's not crossovers that kill the
music, it's
> > crossovers with ATTENUATION which kill the music. If your LF drivers
can keep
> > up with your HF drivers, then there's nothing wrong with a crossover
> > instead of
> > bi-amping. And yes, I've tried it both ways.
> >
> I guess I don't understand this. Given that a horn/driver reportedly
> sounds better when it is driven by a source impedance equal to its own
> rated impedance, if the attenuator is a T Pad, which keeps the
impedance
> constant at all settings, then why would it destroy the sound? Perhaps
> attenuation with an L pad, pot or rheostat would affect the sound. I
> suspect that it would. Alternatively, a resistive divider configured
> such that its impedance is equal to the driver impedance (on both
sides)
> then I don't see how this could screw the sound either. Of
> course biamping could improve the sound by operating the amplfier at a
> lower drive level and also w/o having the hf ride on top of a large
bass
> signal. Anyway, I am not questioning whether biamp would sound better,
> rather why horn attenuation, if done properly, degrades the sound over
a
> non-attenuated passive system.
>
> Dan Marshall
Well, I've not tried it with a T-pad.... Anyone have a diagram for a
16ohm t-pad,
or have a couple so I could check and report back?
Peace
- --
Roscoe Primrose -- mailto:roscoe@aiko.com -- http://www.aiko.com/roscoe
"Once in a while you get shown the light
In the strangest of places if you look at it right." Robert Hunter
"640K ought to be enough for anybody" , Bill Gates, 1981
=========================================================================
From: Roscoe Primrose <roscoe@aiko.com>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 09:35:29 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n268
bill gardner wrote:
> This all started when I said----
>
> > Mark you are on the right track my man .
> > In my always humble opinion :<) ... after 3 1/2 years of hard work , lots
> > of different trial and error approaches, and plenty of help from some of
> > the people on this list (Thanks everyone ) I have to say that I agree with
> > what Joe Roberts stated in a fax to me a couple of years ago --- CROSSOVERS
> > KILL THE MUSIC ---
> > The only way to go , if you want to have a true ultra fi system is to
> > BI-AMP , using a active electronic crossover (Thanks JC you are da man
> > )also I want to add this cool stuff, ain't CHEAP . AS some of you say ,just
> > my 2 cents .
>
> Roscoe then said--------
> I'd have to disagree there... It's not crossovers that kill the music, it's
> crossovers with ATTENUATION which kill the music. If your LF drivers can keep
> up with your HF drivers, then there's nothing wrong with a crossover
> instead of
> bi-amping. And yes, I've tried it both ways.
>
> Than Bill said-----
> I thought about what Roscoe said and have this question .... What really
> world class drivers , woofer... mid ... amd tweeter can you put together
> with all the same efficiencies ( 1W 1db ) with a 1 2 3 or 4 way passive
> crossover that will perform like say the Focal audiom , ATC mid and Stage
> or Seqquerra ribbon in a bi amped configuration ? Just curious and still
> learning. Thanks Bill Gardner
Well, I'm currently running Altec 515Bs in JBL 4560 horn loaded cabinets for LF
with Altec 806As on 511B horns (although, I've got a line on three tar-filled
1005Bs ;-) ), and the levels match pretty well by ear with no attenuation. It
doesn't take much attenuation (with an L-Pad anyway) to destroy the sound, with an
L-Pad in the circuit, just turning it enough down from all the way up that it puts
itself in the circuit makes a huge difference, even though the attenuation is on
the order of 0.1db....
Peace
- --
Roscoe Primrose -- mailto:roscoe@aiko.com -- http://www.aiko.com/roscoe
"Once in a while you get shown the light
In the strangest of places if you look at it right." Robert Hunter
"640K ought to be enough for anybody" , Bill Gates, 1981
=========================================================================
From: Thomas Danley <Tom@ppci.com>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 09:55:27 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n268
william gaw. wrote:
>
> I have to agree with Bill. I tried for a year through experimentat using an
> IMP system, to get a passive crossover that sounded great with my horns,
> both the Edgar originals, and the Edgar round horns with my 6 ft straight
> bass horns. No matter what caps, inductors and resistors I used, and no
> matter how close I came to a straight frequency curve, each time I could get
> one of these three out of the system, it seemed to sound better(less veiled,
> faster, and better sound stage.
> When I went with active crossovers(Marchand ss and tube), with
> biamping(Electraprint VV30B units, the music was glorious, even though I was
> going through 8 extra tubes and their various caps and resistors. I don't
> know whether it was the removal of the large signal caps and inductors, or
> the intimacy of the amps to the speakers, but I am sold that active
> crossovers and multiple amps are the way to go.
Hi
On the other hand like they say "correlation is not causality", several
other things are also different when one bi-amps there speakers.
Non-linearity in the bass amplifier is not passed on thru the to the
high end horn which automatically produces a cleaner sound.
Reducing the bandwidth that each amp handles also is a good thing so far
as spectral contamination. Having a bi-amped system also allows about 2X
the spl to be produced for a given total wattage and so at a given
listening level means the amps in a bi-amped system are operating at a
reduced level where they are also somewhat more linear.
It is also sometimes the case that a more "perfect" reactive component
(like an inductor or capacitor) can be realized in circuitry than at the
power level required to be a crossover network.
Remember it is not how many extra stages that count but rather WHAT
those stages do to the signal.
In theory anyway there is no difference between what an active and
passive crossover does but in practice other things are also different
when one makes the change.
Tom
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 21:25:48 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n269
Works fine with "normal" tweeters / drivers as well !
Guido
At 19:15 29-4-98 -0400, Mark Donen wrote:
>A7/A5 people, this has got to be the easiest tweak in the world:
>
>30 ohm resistor in parallel to the compression driver. Maybe everyone knows
>this, but it really takes the edge off the old buzzsaw.
>
>Mark
>
>
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 21:25:50 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n269
The resistor gives damping below the cross-over, were the driving impedance
rises (series capacitor), so eny artefacts below f-res get little damping
Guido
At 20:24 29-4-98 -0700, Dave Slagle wrote:
>>A7/A5 people, this has got to be the easiest tweak in the world:
>>
>>30 ohm resistor in parallel to the compression driver. Maybe everyone knows
>>this, but it really takes the edge off the old buzzsaw.
>>
>>Mark
>
>wouldn't this take the edge off by just reducing the output to the
>offending driver???
>
>they have the same mod to do to lowthers, toss a 20 ohm resistor across a
>16 ohm driver to tame the nasty impedance curve, but you also toss away
>almost 1/2 your power as heat through the resistor... has anyone out there
>with a big tube amp (211, 845) ever tried this??? i tried it with a 45, and
>at that level the output power is a bit too precious.... i don't imagine
>50's to be too different power-wise, maybe a VV-30 (4X the power) and a
>matching swamping R would be a good compromise???
>
>
>dave
>
>
>
=========================================================================
From: Joseph Lowe <jlowe@cdc.net>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 23:50:42 -0400 (EDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n269
> I think she had listened
> to the Dead thru my S/S bass amp/
The Dead will show up any tendency to whipyness real quick like. Truckin'
on Europe '72 is one of my favorite test tracks.
=========================================================================
From: bill gardner <wg44929@navix.net>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 09:54:52 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n269
and then Roscoe replied--------------
> Well, I'm currently running Altec 515Bs in JBL 4560 horn loaded cabinets
for LF
>with Altec 806As on 511B horns (although, I've got a line on three tar-filled
>1005Bs ;-) ), and the levels match pretty well by ear with no attenuation.
It
>doesn't take much attenuation (with an L-Pad anyway) to destroy the sound,
with an
>L-Pad in the circuit, just turning it enough down from all the way up that
it puts
>itself in the circuit makes a huge difference, even though the attenuation
is on
>the order of 0.1db....
>
>Peace
And of course Bill added to this thread .... Please don't take this as
anything but a friendly and open minded reply.... But .... I tried some
515s in 825 boxs .... I also understand lots of you guys dig this
nostalgia theater altec stuff , think back to the glorious days of
yester-years , remember the little old gal on the tv commercial that said
..... wheres the bass? err maybe it was beef ? nah I think she had listened
to the Dead thru my S/S bass amp/ 845 mid / hi, bi-amped setup, and then
went over to a friends house with some 515s, and after comparing the two
systems .... said it ;>)
Hey,,, whatever races your motor .... like roscoe said, peace
Bill
=========================================================================
From: bill gardner <wg44929@navix.net>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 09:54:54 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n269
and then Roscoe replied--------------
> Well, I'm currently running Altec 515Bs in JBL 4560 horn loaded cabinets
for LF
>with Altec 806As on 511B horns (although, I've got a line on three tar-filled
>1005Bs ;-) ), and the levels match pretty well by ear with no attenuation.
It
>doesn't take much attenuation (with an L-Pad anyway) to destroy the sound,
with an
>L-Pad in the circuit, just turning it enough down from all the way up that
it puts
>itself in the circuit makes a huge difference, even though the attenuation
is on
>the order of 0.1db....
>
>Peace
And of course Bill added to this thread .... Please don't take this as
anything but a friendly and open minded reply.... But .... I tried some
515s in 825 boxs .... I also understand lots of you guys dig this
nostalgia theater altec stuff , think back to the glorious days of
yester-years , remember the little old gal on the tv commercial that said
..... wheres the bass? err maybe it was beef ? nah I think she had listened
to the Dead thru my S/S bass amp/ 845 mid / hi, bi-amped setup, and then
went over to a friends house with some 515s, and after comparing the two
systems .... said it ;>)
Hey,,, whatever races your motor .... like roscoe said, peace
Bill
=========================================================================
From: "Conrad Drake" <conrad.drake@intellect.com.au>
Subject: Eating Crow (or Kiwi) Re: SP # 15 Another Winner!
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 22:27:47 +0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n319
Well, it seems the Tasman is not as wide as the Pacific after all!
SP15 arrived today. A sound-check recording of Gould playing
"The Goldberg Variations" was an appropriate background to both
cover & contents. Five minutes of flicking through and five
"oh, of course!" class relevations.
And, the current CD has just moved onto an extract of the original.
My subconcious is way ahead of me!
CD
>>> "E. Billeci" <tube@teleport.com> 06/18/98 01:00am >>>
Got it yesterday, and it is quite cool. As usual. But this
one is particularly cool. (did I mention I like this mag?)
There are -alot- of great articles. I won't spoil it for you
by giving details, but let's just say you 2A3er's will be very
happy campers when they get this baby.
Joe, you da man!
Ed B.
=========================================================================
From: Scott Grammer <tubedude@cdc.net>
Subject: Ebay auctions of interest
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 13:00:17 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n444
Folks:
I have two auctions on Ebay you might find interesting:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=34457439
which is a set of ten NIB 5687's, and
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=34449366
which is a copy of Electrostatic Loudspeaker Design and Construction, by
Ronald Wagner.
Cheers!
S.G.
- --
Visit TubeDude's Webpage of Vacuum Tube Lore!
http://www.cdc.net/~tubedude
Also check out Smoke Free Youth!
http://www.cdc.net/~tubedude/smokefreeyouth.html
=========================================================================
From: Soh Lieh Sieng <liehsoh@tm.net.my>
Subject: E. Belleci's 300B Amps
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 13:02:52 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n157
Just visited the Audio Bizarro web site at
http://www.teleport.com/~tube/index.htm#3, great site!
Does anybody have the circuit diagram of the 2 300B amps by E. Belleci as
shown in the constructor's section of this site?
Thanks.
=========================================================================
From: Robert Ang <rang@tartarus.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: ECC802 as 12AU7 replacement?
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 01:22:47 +0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n191
G'day everyone.
I've picked up some NOS Telefunken diamond ECC802 tubes from a friend.
I read somewhere that these are a drop-in replacement for the 12AU7, but
I don't know any history behind the different name. Can anyone shed
light on why it's called a ECC802 instead of ECC82 / 12AU7A?
Rob.
=========================================================================
From: Torsten.Loesch@FinanceManager.Finance.FinanceAndInformation.enhar-ha.nthames.nhs.uk
Subject: ECC88 -Old Type Question
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 19:06:43 +0000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n157
Hi all,
Curiosity (killed the cat) and made me look into
my old Philips Scope (part Tube, part valve).
This has got six ECC88 Tubes, marked:
Philips
Miniwatt
ECC88
Made in Holland
As this Scop'e was allways in Amateur Hands it has seen
comparable little usage (but plenty of Dust). As I'm now
getting into the hotter Phase of my Preamp Project (Circuit
will be a mixture of the Arthur Loesch Pre-Amp with some
Allen Wright bit's thrown in) wich will use 6DJ8 style
Tubes, is it worth revalving the Scope with Sovteks and
use these Philips ones in the Pre?
I maybe start looking for a different old 'scope for a
few quid, as the Philips has also got an EXTREMELY NICE
C-Core Main's X-Former with just the right voltages
and a very nice 24-Position Switch.....
Later Thorsten
=========================================================================
From: "Le Cleac'h J.-M." <lecleach@cgi.ensmp.fr>
Subject: Re: ECC88 -Old Type Question
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:02:35 +0100 (MET)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n158
At 19:06 10/01/1998 +0000, you wrote:
>Curiosity (killed the cat) and made me look into
>my old Philips Scope (part Tube, part valve).
>This has got six ECC88 Tubes, marked:
>Philips
>Miniwatt
>ECC88
>Made in Holland
> is it worth revalving the Scope with Sovteks and
>use these Philips ones in the Pre?
IMHO, yes!
For additional info give a look to the last VTV (think it is isuue N° 7),
interesting paper and measurements about ECC88, 6DJ8, 6922, 7308...
If you'll find a stash of NOS (even used) 7308, told me!
Best regards,
Jean-Michel Le Cleac'h, Paris, France
Jean-Michel Le Cleac'h, Paris, France
=========================================================================
From: Douglas Purl <dcp@selway.umt.edu>
Subject: Ecdysiasm
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 15:37:53 -0600 (MDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n388
I do not believe I suffer from OCD, as the appearance of my desk when I am
working attests (ten books open at a time). But I have an affliction that
affects my attitude toward tubes.
I've spent my lifetime riding a bicycle. In my native California it was a
sensible choice. Up here in the madman rockies, while it was ever so much
faster, carrying me door to door more rapidly than driving, parking, and
walking could, it also entailed many hard falls on ice, most of which I
would not care to repeat.
Most of my adult life I have been concerned that our auto lifestyle is, in
the scheme of human history, unconscionably selfish. We are determined to
use up the world's oil reserves as rapidly as we can, indifferent to the
consequences of exhausting what it took the earth and sun ages to create.
Our remote progeny will curse us, and justifiably. We ought to be riding
steel wheel against steel rail in public vehicles, and our cities ought to
be clustered and arrangeed so as to favor foot and human-powered transit.
At least this is what my conscience tells me. I come, now, to the point.
Tubes make me nervous. Small-signal tubes not so much, but big
cathode-stripping, heat-wasting power tubes gnaw on me. They produce
anxiety and guilt. I worry too about their inevitable and even imminent
death. They are certainly not suitable to a bicycle world. I am always
astonished by the blithe and careless cheer of tubeophiles -- they just
keep dancing, heedless of the caution in Peggy Lee's rendition. My
reservations are moral, not technical.
No one else here, I take it, suffers from tube remorse. The Agenbit of
thermionic emission. (I feel a bit, to my discomfort, like General Ripper
confessing his Purity of Essence theory to Group Captain Lionel Mandrake:
"I first became aware of this sense of loss, Mandrake, during an act of
love. . . . I do not avoid women, Mandrake, but I do withhold my
essence."
Doug Purl
=========================================================================
From: "Lynn T. Olson" <lynno@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 15:37:58 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n388
Actually, I share some of this feeling about tubes as well. It helps to
live in a part of the world (Northwest USA) where most of the electricity
comes from clean hydropower.
The ideal solution would be solar power for home electricity and
air-conditioning, alcohol for aircraft and cars, and large fusion systems
for powering the grid. In a rational world these would already be on-line.
When I grew up in the Fifties, there seemed to be plenty of evidence that
fossil fuels (as they were called then) would be phased out in favor of the
options shown above. Unfortunately, the only change I see 40 years later is
the multinationals calling themselves "energy" instead of fossil-fuel
companies. Uh huh. It's still hydrocarbons that are dug out of the ground,
burned for energy content, and released as carbon dioxide and water vapor
(in the ideal 100% efficient case).
Yes, tubes waste electrical energy compared to Class AB transistor
amplifiers, and especially compared to Class D (PWM) transistor amplifiers.
However, it isn't a whole lot ... my big 20W PP amps consume 500 watts
between the two of them, and unlike audiophile amps, I don't leave them on
all the time. (For some weird reason it seems that transistor Class A
audiophile amplifiers require a *long* time ... 24 hours ... to warm up
uniformly and reach the full sonic potential.) Many home appliances chew up
more power than that.
Manufacturing tubes? Well, there's sure no shortage of 300B-alikes ... with
the recent announcement of J.J. Electronics, that makes no less than
*three* builders of DHT triodes in the Czech Republic. Add Western
Electric, Svetlana, Sovtek, and uncounted myriads of back-alley factories
in China, and there's a *lot* of capacity. Mundane pentodes are plentiful
as well.
I do have misgivings about decent "receiving" type triodes ... the most
popular types, 12AX7, 12AU7, 12AT7, and 6DJ8 are just about the most
nonlinear triodes that exist. The commonplace 6SN7 is about 3 to 4 times
lower in distortion, not a small advantage. So I am hoping that somebody
sees the light and starts making triodes as good as the triode-connected
7788's, 437, 7044, or 7119. There's nothing stopping anyone from making a
clone of the 7044 or 7119, changing the heater, and re-basing it so it will
fit in a 12AU7 socket. That would yield a "super" 12AU7 with much lower
distortion and superb plate dissipation ratings.
As always, the energy problem is mostly economic and political, not
technical. If I buy a nice energy-efficient Class AB receiver from Sanyo,
that doesn't have much impact on the decisions made in the boardroom of
Shell Oil. And the decisions made in that room have a far larger impact on
global energy utilization than all the tube nuts in the the world added
together. I would make a guess that shifting a mere 0.1% of world energy
production from fossil to solar would outweigh the energy consumption of
the entire consumer electronics sector.
Lynn T. Olson
Editor, Valve & Tube News
E-mail: lynno@teleport.com
Ariel Speaker Page: http://www.teleport.com/~lynno/Ariel.htm
=========================================================================
From: Grego Sanguinetti <grego@lscpdx.latticesemi.com>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 16:04:39 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n388
On Thu, Aug 13, 1998 at 03:37:53PM -0600, Douglas Purl wrote:
> At least this is what my conscience tells me. I come, now, to the point.
oh phew,
> Tubes make me nervous. Small-signal tubes not so much, but big
> cathode-stripping, heat-wasting power tubes gnaw on me. They produce
> anxiety and guilt. I worry too about their inevitable and even imminent
> death. They are certainly not suitable to a bicycle world. I am always
> astonished by the blithe and careless cheer of tubeophiles -- they just
> keep dancing, heedless of the caution in Peggy Lee's rendition. My
> reservations are moral, not technical.
>
> No one else here, I take it, suffers from tube remorse. The Agenbit of
> thermionic emission. (I feel a bit, to my discomfort, like General Ripper
Nope, I use less electricity now than I did with my all solid
state setup. Now I admitt that this is largely due to the much
more efficient speakers. But they would/do sound awful with
all solid state amps (altec A7 style).
The only time I regret it is in the summer. The tube amps are much
more efficient at heating rooms. With the solid state, low efficiency
speakers set up the wasted power was more dispersed through the
system. The tube/glass/air conduction makes a pretty good space heater.
And hey, I have a space heater that plays music and charges batteries
all at the same time. Pretty good use of electricity actually.
- -grego
=========================================================================
From: Leo <remyl@home.com>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 19:26:06 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n388
I am following this thread with interest. I use tube gear and drive an
automobile. However i believe that when you look at a problem, you must
try to see the whole thing from beginning to end. For example, while it
is arguable on the surface that tubes are less efficient then SS, are
tube amplifiers themselves worse for the environment. I 'm sure i will
be corrected if i am wrong, but i remember reading somewhere that the
whole chip industry, was one a group of companies that used some very
toxic substances, and on the whole had not so great a record of
environmental care. ( I don't know how conscientious the glass bottle
companies were)
Add to this the fact that tube gear is, on the whole quite recyclable,
what with trannies and all. Many valuable old pieces of tube gear have
been harvested for modern parts.
Anyway just to look at another aspect of the issue.
Lata'
Leo
=========================================================================
From: "Jeff Brouwer"<jeff_brouwer_at_crc-tmd@mail.crc.com>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 98 18:39:24 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n388
Seems more like anxiety and guilt about class A operation to me; the
primary difference in power consumption between tube and transistor
being the tube's heater. My amps use about 50W of heater power--I
turn off one light while I'm listening and I'm ahead of the game. I
personally feel there are many more aspects of our lifestyle to feel
morally guilty about than using power to run the heaters of our tube
amps.
I've seen several reviews of big transistor amps in the past year that
quoted power dissipations greater than a kilowatt--makes us all (well,
most of us) seem frugal in comparison.
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Ecdysiasm
Author: Douglas Purl <dcp@selway.umt.edu> at Internet
Date: 8/13/98 3:37 PM
I do not believe I suffer from OCD, as the appearance of my desk when I am
working attests (ten books open at a time). But I have an affliction that
affects my attitude toward tubes.
I've spent my lifetime riding a bicycle. In my native California it was a
sensible choice. Up here in the madman rockies, while it was ever so much
faster, carrying me door to door more rapidly than driving, parking, and
walking could, it also entailed many hard falls on ice, most of which I
would not care to repeat.
Most of my adult life I have been concerned that our auto lifestyle is, in
the scheme of human history, unconscionably selfish. We are determined to
use up the world's oil reserves as rapidly as we can, indifferent to the
consequences of exhausting what it took the earth and sun ages to create.
Our remote progeny will curse us, and justifiably. We ought to be riding
steel wheel against steel rail in public vehicles, and our cities ought to
be clustered and arrangeed so as to favor foot and human-powered transit.
At least this is what my conscience tells me. I come, now, to the point.
Tubes make me nervous. Small-signal tubes not so much, but big
cathode-stripping, heat-wasting power tubes gnaw on me. They produce
anxiety and guilt. I worry too about their inevitable and even imminent
death. They are certainly not suitable to a bicycle world. I am always
astonished by the blithe and careless cheer of tubeophiles -- they just
keep dancing, heedless of the caution in Peggy Lee's rendition. My
reservations are moral, not technical.
No one else here, I take it, suffers from tube remorse. The Agenbit of
thermionic emission. (I feel a bit, to my discomfort, like General Ripper
confessing his Purity of Essence theory to Group Captain Lionel Mandrake:
"I first became aware of this sense of loss, Mandrake, during an act of
love. . . . I do not avoid women, Mandrake, but I do withhold my
essence."
Doug Purl
=========================================================================
From: davidbarnett@aristotle.net (David Barnett)
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 04:04:03 GMT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n388
On Thu, 13 Aug 1998 15:37:53 -0600 (MDT), Douglas Purl
<dcp@selway.umt.edu> wrote:
>I've spent my lifetime riding a bicycle.
Don't forget that Norman Crowhurst was fatally wounded on a
bicycle....
- --dnb
=========================================================================
From: Douglas Purl <dcp@selway.umt.edu>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 01:44:19 -0600 (MDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n389
One point I neglected to make is I feel selfish using tubes. Tubes seem
to glow with a mind, with a spirit and an intelligence. It is painful for
me to use up their gas for my pleasure.
I was never able to hunt -- it appalls me that men take pleasure in
killing animals. And I had an unpleasant confrontation with myself about
two decades ago when, during a beautiful late summer afternoon drifting
towards evening, at a beautiful rocky spot along the deep-blue Clark Fork,
I caught a magnificent 23" rainbow trout feeding spectaculary. It was the
last fish I ever caught. How many times I have wished that I could
restore his life to him, which was more magnificent than any boast I could
make of my prowess.
Doug Purl
=========================================================================
From: Scott Grammer <tubedude@cdc.net>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 05:09:36 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n389
Leo wrote:
> I am following this thread with interest. I use tube gear and drive an
> automobile. However i believe that when you look at a problem, you must
> try to see the whole thing from beginning to end. (SNIP)
I agree. One must also consider the fact that most mass market consumer gear
has a life expectancy of 5-10 years. Some units are lucky to make it to one
year! (I know, I have worked on this stuff for a living for 20+ years.)
Tube units, on the other hand, are not only easily recycled by a willing
experimenter, but they use much less oil-based material in their
construction. When is the last time you saw a tube amp with an all-plastic
cabinet?
Cheers!
S.G.
Check out TubeDude's Webpage of Vacuum Tube Lore!
http://www.cdc.net/~tubedude/
Now with Lemon Scented Borax!
=========================================================================
From: tubesguy@mail.execpc.com (Patrick Currie)
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:02:30 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n389
>I was never able to hunt -- it appalls me that men take pleasure in
>killing animals. And I had an unpleasant confrontation with myself about
>two decades ago when, during a beautiful late summer afternoon drifting
>towards evening, at a beautiful rocky spot along the deep-blue Clark Fork,
>I caught a magnificent 23" rainbow trout feeding spectaculary. It was the
>last fish I ever caught. How many times I have wished that I could
>restore his life to him, which was more magnificent than any boast I could
>make of my prowess.
>
>Doug Purl
Doug -
As always, there is an answer, in this case "catch and release." Even
works if you're trolling. ;-) - Pat
Pat Currie (tubesguy@execpc.com)
=========================================================================
From: Rick Francis <rfranci@uoft03.utoledo.edu>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:16:59 -0400 (EDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n389
On Fri, 14 Aug 1998, Scott Grammer wrote:
SNIP
>
> I agree. One must also consider the fact that most mass market consumer gear
> has a life expectancy of 5-10 years. Some units are lucky to make it to one
> year! (I know, I have worked on this stuff for a living for 20+ years.)
>
> Tube units, on the other hand, are not only easily recycled by a willing
> experimenter, but they use much less oil-based material in their
> construction. When is the last time you saw a tube amp with an all-plastic
> cabinet?
>
Yes, this is an important distinction: energy consumption for actual use
VS. energy consumption to junk and replace with new. On the BIG longterm
scale, for example, it is FAR BETTER to keep driving your old 20-mpg car
than to junk it and buy a new 40-mpg car. This is due to the resources
consumed both by junking and by building the replacement.
I daresay a good number of us are heavily recycling vintage equipment
rather than consuming new, whether a the level of parts or whole units.
When you consider that we are also getting SERVICE out of old
*already-manufactured-years-ago* vacuum tubes, we should have very little
remorse indeed.
- --Rick, who is still using the Peugeot PX-10E Reynolds-tubing bicycle he
bought when he was an aspiring fourteen-year-old racer (the frame is the
only original part left!)
=========================================================================
From: Tom Suit <tsuit@UU.NET>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:51:13 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n389
At 03:37 PM 8/13/98 -0600, Douglas Purl wrote:
>
>Most of my adult life I have been concerned that our auto lifestyle is, in
>the scheme of human history, unconscionably selfish. We are determined to
>use up the world's oil reserves as rapidly as we can, indifferent to the
>consequences of exhausting what it took the earth and sun ages to create.
>Our remote progeny will curse us, and justifiably.
What, we should be running on fossile fuels until the end of time? I think
we'll have a superior replacement before too long at the given rate of
technological breakthroughs. And if they are using something better, why
would
they curse us?
> We ought to be riding
>steel wheel against steel rail in public vehicles, and our cities ought to
>be clustered and arrangeed so as to favor foot and human-powered transit.
Ah yes, the hive mentality...so we can all be good little worker drones in
the perfect society. No thanks. Move to China if that is what you like.
Meanwhile, I'll be commuting in my V12 powered car. And in honor of people
like you, I always make sure I smoke the wheels at least once on Earth Day.
>At least this is what my conscience tells me. I come, now, to the point.
>Tubes make me nervous. Small-signal tubes not so much, but big
>cathode-stripping, heat-wasting power tubes gnaw on me. They produce
>anxiety and guilt. I worry too about their inevitable and even imminent
>death. They are certainly not suitable to a bicycle world. I am always
>astonished by the blithe and careless cheer of tubeophiles -- they just
>keep dancing, heedless of the caution in Peggy Lee's rendition. My
>reservations are moral, not technical.
Then quit using them. But in the meantime, be consistent with your morality.
If you are so concerned, you should quit eating cooked food and taking hot
showers. And think of all the electricity your television wastes. If you
were truly a concerned citizen, you would cut out all of these selfish
luxuries.
>No one else here, I take it, suffers from tube remorse. The Agenbit of
>thermionic emission. (I feel a bit, to my discomfort, like General Ripper
>confessing his Purity of Essence theory to Group Captain Lionel Mandrake:
>"I first became aware of this sense of loss, Mandrake, during an act of
>love. . . . I do not avoid women, Mandrake, but I do withhold my
>essence."
That sounds pretty selfish of him. Most women I know would resent that.
Anyway, to maintain some worthwhile tube content to this let me ask the
following:
Given all the recent discussion of biamping, (cool...more tubes burnin' the
midnight oil...DRIVING UP THE NEED FOR NUCLEAR POWER!! eXcellent, Skeletor!
eXcellent!) is there an advantage to bandwidth limiting an amp by design,
versus just leaving it up to the crossovers (be they active or passive)?
- -Tom
=========================================================================
From: Grego Sanguinetti <grego@lscpdx.latticesemi.com>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 11:55:46 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n389
On Fri, Aug 14, 1998 at 05:58:22PM +0000, David Barnett wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 01:44:19 -0600 (MDT), Douglas Purl
> <dcp@selway.umt.edu> wrote:
>
> > Tubes seem
> >to glow with a mind, with a spirit and an intelligence. It is painful for
> >me to use up their gas for my pleasure.
>
> But they give of themselves willingly.
Not to mention the fact that they will eventually fail their
vacuum without ever experiencing the joy of making music. Now
THAT would be a waste. Power em up and let them sing.
- -grego
who attones his energy sins by supporting several ponds of
wildlife and a small forrest.
By the way, I just ordered some extra "wu". You can get it
cheap at 1-900-IMSOHIP. I figured I needed all I could get B^)
=========================================================================
From: Douglas Purl <dcp@selway.umt.edu>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:57:47 -0600 (MDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n389
On Fri, 14 Aug 1998, Grego Sanguinetti wrote:
> > > Tubes seem
> > >to glow with a mind, with a spirit and an intelligence. It is painful for
> > >me to use up their gas for my pleasure.
> >
> > But they give of themselves willingly.
>
> Not to mention the fact that they will eventually fail their
> vacuum without ever experiencing the joy of making music. Now
> THAT would be a waste. Power em up and let them sing.
A good point, probably. Carpe diem. It raises a tangent, however: How
long can those NOS tubes remain in prime condition? I never anticipated
that the supply of tubes would become so scarce, or the demand so great.
I quite agree with Lynn Olson that, weighed soberly, the excess power
consumption of tubes is negligible proportionately. A little restraint in
the use of fuels can compensate.
But tubes are like humans. They have birth and death, juvenescence to
maturity to senescence, are sensitive to shock and temperature, can
recover from some mishaps but not all, are capable of murder and suicide,
and may suffer from delusions of grandeur or malheur.
Ecdysiasm, in response to queries, is the biological term for the
mechanism by which some plants shed part of themselves. In the palmy days
of journalism strippers were called ecdysiasts in some quarters. Cathode
stripping.
Doug Purl
=========================================================================
From: "Reid Welch" <rewelch@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Ecdysiasm
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 15:51:20 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n389
Grego said:
>...Not to mention the fact that they will eventually fail their
>vacuum without ever experiencing the joy of making music. Now
>THAT would be a waste. Power em up and let them sing...
If heard that said by a couple of people. Does glass really slowly lose
vacuum, or is the trouble- as such- arising from the occasional molecular
pinhole?
I'm not convinced that old tubes in storage become more gassy over time.
I wonder if there's a simple way to check for relative gas/grid current
between samples of like tubes. I sure hope my old WE300Bs aren't gonna glow
blue inside the plate/grid area. Not _ever_.
Reid
=========================================================================
From: davidbarnett@aristotle.net (David Barnett)
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 17:58:22 GMT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n389
On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 01:44:19 -0600 (MDT), Douglas Purl
<dcp@selway.umt.edu> wrote:
> Tubes seem
>to glow with a mind, with a spirit and an intelligence. It is painful for
>me to use up their gas for my pleasure.
But they give of themselves willingly.
- --dnb
=========================================================================
From: Grego Sanguinetti <grego@lscpdx.latticesemi.com>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 16:34:21 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n390
On Fri, Aug 14, 1998 at 03:51:20PM -0400, Reid Welch wrote:
> Grego said:
>
> >...Not to mention the fact that they will eventually fail their
> >vacuum without ever experiencing the joy of making music. Now
> >THAT would be a waste. Power em up and let them sing...
>
> If heard that said by a couple of people. Does glass really slowly lose
> vacuum, or is the trouble- as such- arising from the occasional molecular
> pinhole?
>
> I'm not convinced that old tubes in storage become more gassy over time.
yes. how long it takes will vary. Some may last a long long time, but
how long are we talking about or care about? The older tubes are not
only older but have weaker pin seals than the newer ones. The thickness
of the glass probably has a good deal to do with how long they resist
contamination from other gasses. Some designs probably deal with a little
contamination better than others. But I think it is a fair assumption that
the old stock tubes won't last forever. At some point they should be used.
But I wouldn't expect the more modern ones to go bad anytime soon.
At any rate, they have already lasted a long time. Your WE300s
will probably last a long time. Do you plan to listen to them or
save them for your children? If you are planning on listening
to them then I am sure they will last long enough for you to do so.
- -grego
=========================================================================
From: Ron Bales <rbales@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 19:41:48 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n390
Several points to be made here. If the tubes are not plugged in and used
then they will not have lived. If they have not lived they cannot die. If
they cannot die, then they cannot have lived. Sorta like having an embryo
cast in poly so you'll never see your child suffer.
As for hunting, I am at most an irregular, more often helping a friend with
some problem with the local wildlife rather than setting off after
something. But, I'll borrow from Santayana, "We do not hunt to kill, we
kill in order to have hunted." Or this one from Ted Nugent, "Hell, if I
just wanted to kill things, I'd get into the poultry business."
This fish you caught, he was going to die. You did not, in any way,
increase the rate of mortality of trout. You ate it? That is a necessary
thing to do. And even if you'd had Spam instead, something would have been
killed for you to eat. Vegetarianism really isn't an answer, wanna talk
about how many tons of living animal are killed per acre of plowing.
Back to your fish. He was going to die. You were going to eat. You got
to know and enjoy this fish in a way you couldn't have otherwise. The size
of a trophy is really a matter of luck, not a thing to brag about unless
we're talking about game that has a serious chance of fighting back.
Is there a poignant ambivalence to the hunt, sure. Otherwise we may as
well just eat out of cans and try to forget where food comes from and how
life works.
ROn
Douglas Purl wrote:
>
> One point I neglected to make is I feel selfish using tubes. Tubes seem
> to glow with a mind, with a spirit and an intelligence. It is painful for
> me to use up their gas for my pleasure.
>
> I was never able to hunt -- it appalls me that men take pleasure in
> killing animals. And I had an unpleasant confrontation with myself about
> two decades ago when, during a beautiful late summer afternoon drifting
> towards evening, at a beautiful rocky spot along the deep-blue Clark Fork,
> I caught a magnificent 23" rainbow trout feeding spectaculary. It was the
> last fish I ever caught. How many times I have wished that I could
> restore his life to him, which was more magnificent than any boast I could
> make of my prowess.
>
> Doug Purl
=========================================================================
From: "Reid Welch" <rewelch@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Ecdysiasm
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 21:03:52 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n390
>On Fri, Aug 14, 1998 at 03:51:20PM -0400, Reid Welch wrote:
>> Grego said:
>>
>> >...Not to mention the fact that they will eventually fail their
>> >vacuum without ever experiencing the joy of making music. Now
>> >THAT would be a waste. Power em up and let them sing...
>>
>> If heard that said by a couple of people. Does glass really slowly lose
>> vacuum, or is the trouble- as such- arising from the occasional
>molecular
>> pinhole?
>>
>> I'm not convinced that old tubes in storage become more gassy over time.
>
>yes. how long it takes will vary. Some may last a long long time, but
>how long are we talking about or care about? The older tubes are not
>only older but have weaker pin seals than the newer ones. The thickness
>of the glass probably has a good deal to do with how long they resist
>contamination from other gasses. Some designs probably deal with a little
>contamination better than others. But I think it is a fair assumption that
>the old stock tubes won't last forever. At some point they should be used.
>But I wouldn't expect the more modern ones to go bad anytime soon.
>
>At any rate, they have already lasted a long time. Your WE300s
>will probably last a long time. Do you plan to listen to them or
>save them for your children? If you are planning on listening
>to them then I am sure they will last long enough for you to do so.
>
>-grego
But is there any evidence besides scattered _opinion_ that the purported
slow leakage _really_ occurs? I have seen no such mention in the literature.
But of course absence of data proves nothing either.
I brought up the WEs just as an example of a well made, well pumped tube. I
don't play mine anymore because I prefer the sound of VV tubes even better.
Whether they'll last is of no real worry to me.
WEs aside, I wallow around in pre-1930 tubes every day. Rarely have I seen
a gassy blue grid. Such a tube was either badly made, or more often, abused
to get in that poor condition. Like an 80 that's been short circuited- that
turns real blue. Or like a pair of gassy Chinese 2A3s I bought not long
ago: They were defective almost form the get-go and caused all kinds of
devilment even before the telltale grid-glow finally showed up.
My own _opinion_ is that ~because almost every cheaply pumped, mass-produced
tube from 1925 still tests adequately free from gas to adequately perform
its original duty that it's safe to assume they will withstand centuries of
idleness without substantial further deterioration~. So I would delight in
real information if there is any. If the news turns out bad I could store
my 27's and 24's in a gutted 40" CRT, pumping out the makeshift bell jar at
intervals with the ol' Sprengle pump.
:^)
Reid
=========================================================================
From: davidbarnett@aristotle.net (David Barnett)
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 22:08:24 GMT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n390
On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:57:47 -0600 (MDT), Douglas Purl
<dcp@selway.umt.edu> wrote:
>Ecdysiasm, in response to queries, is the biological term for the
>mechanism by which some plants shed part of themselves.
In the same e-mail download with which I received Doug's first post
under this header, I also received a post from the Elite Fitness list
with the header "Ecdysterone." Small world....
- --dnb
=========================================================================
From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Torbj=F8rn_Lien?=" <mdrivekl@online.no>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 23:52:53 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n390
> Not to mention the fact that they will eventually fail their
> vacuum without ever experiencing the joy of making music. Now
> THAT would be a waste. Power em up and let them sing.
Uhmm, heard of two causes: 1...Because of cosmic rays, there won't be
any working antique tubes in about,-hard to say,
100-150 years or so.(Will check this out)
And 2: The glass envelope surrounds the vacuum alright, but certain
rare gases (Argon? Helium?)will be slowly attracted and "sucked" into
the envelope,between the glassmolecules so to speak, contaminating
it..(Will check this too.)
:TL
>
> -grego
> who attones his energy sins by supporting several ponds of
> wildlife and a small forrest.
>
> By the way, I just ordered some extra "wu". You can get it
> cheap at 1-900-IMSOHIP. I figured I needed all I could get B^)
=========================================================================
From: Thom Mackris <tmackris@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 00:39:50 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n390
Doug,
As one who subscribes to Taoist philosophy, I share your sense of aesthetics and environmental commi
ttment. There are some in this thread who would see your posts as off topic ... as not directly rel
ating to the design of tube circuitry. I contend that your posts are very relevant. Appreciating v
acuum tube audio is a very wholistic experience.
Although this is a technical group, I would hope that 80447454f the people on this list would share the
goal (which we all lose site of from time to time) of experiencing magic - of traveling in space
and time in order to connect with a distant (musical) event. I don't want to get off on a Harvey Ro
senberg rant, but my point is that we're all after a transcendent experience in one form or another.
If people *do* make this connection through music played through their hi-fi's, maybe a small percen
tage of them will get the "crazy" idea that it *is* possible to save the planet.
I just recently ditched my sand-state gear which only started to sound o.k. after about 24 hours and
wasn't 100151376ntil about the fourth day of operation. I feel a lot better that my 2A3's get powered
up only when I'm listening to them. I do think that Lynn is correct however regarding the total am
ount of energy spent on all consumer electronics being minute, and my good feelings are probably mor
e aesthetic than of true substance..
I do however feel like the ugly American due to my general lifestyle, currently living in a suburban
community Southwest of Denver. I watch this area attempt to become as toxic a wasteland as is Sacr
amento, CA where my wife and I lived for four years. People are like lobsters in a pot & most don't
realize that they're cooked until it's too late. People like my wife are the canaries in the mines
haft - she developed life threatening asthma and 3 years after leaving Sacramento, she is still on 5
perscription drugs to in order stay alive. I live in a paradox: we are in the 'burbs so we can br
eathe, and conversely, we are forced into an intimate relationship with the automobile which intensi
fies the assault on our planet and its inhabitants.
In another post, Tom Suit <tsuit@UU.NET> said:
Ah yes, the hive mentality...so we can all be good little worker drones in
the perfect society. No thanks. Move to China if that is what you like.
Meanwhile, I'll be commuting in my V12 powered car. And in honor of people
like you, I always make sure I smoke the wheels at least once on Earth Day.
We're talking about community mentality Tom!! When I read his post, my racism detectors went haywir
e. By racism, I'm not specifically referring to his mention of any specific group, but of his arrog
ant display of superiority and desire to distance himself from humanity in general. Maybe this isn'
t racism. Maybe he hates the entire human race (human racism?). Tom is obviously married to the man
ifest destiny ethic. Expressing his individualism by driving a V-12 and burning rubber? Come on no
w Tom! Where did these individualistic thoughts come from - Road & Track? Car & Driver? Stereophi
le? Our development patterns create little isolation boxes where we grow more and more distant fro
m our fellow human beings. Does Tom have any idea of the shape that this planet would be in if all
6 billion of it's inhabitants were as piggish as we Americans are?
So other than make a small difference, what's a mother to do? Beats the hell out of me, but I'm rem
inded of David Crosby's lyrics: "the way I live, determines the way that my people survive". I jus
t have to search for a better way to live every day.
Best wishes,
Thom Mackris
=========================================================================
From: "Lynn T. Olson" <lynno@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 02:30:20 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n390
>I just recently ditched my sand-state gear which only started to sound
>o.k. after about 24 hours and wasn't 100% until about the fourth day of
>operation. I feel a lot better that my 2A3's get powered up only when I'm
>listening to them. I do think that Lynn is correct however regarding the
>total amount of energy spent on all consumer electronics being minute, and
>my good feelings are probably more aesthetic than of true substance.
Thom Mackris has brought up an important point. In a world filled with
ugliness of human origin (ever been to Calcutta?), I feel it is critically
important to cultivate beauty. People sometimes comment on the spiritual
undertone of my writing, well, that's the feeling behind it. We really do
need food for the soul, especially in the current era of ugliness of spirit
from hyper-violence in the media, ugly-minded trash-talk radio, hideous
clothes, self-mutilation, and nihilist attitudes cynically promoted by the
music industry. These things are real, and they are ugly in a spiritual
sense since they reflect attitudes of cynicism and despair. Granted, they
are empty poses most of the time (attitude is everything it seems), but
still, synthetic ugliness has the same outcome as genuine ugliness: a
blunting and dulling of the human spirit.
In some ways what we do with vacuum tubes is like Stradivarius creating
beautiful art in an age of violence and cruelty. Would the world have been
a better place if Mr. Strad had been a revolutionary instead? Probably not.
He would have died in prison and world would have lost centuries of
beautiful music. Those violins won't last forever, either ... there's a
limit to how much restoration you can do to anything.
Tubes are like a beautiful flower or a wonderful meal ... a transitory
beauty, but certainly no less sweet for that. Some of the sweetest and
deepest experiences of beauty are inevitably transitory ... that's just how
life is arranged. (Buddhism makes a big deal out of how clinging to
transitory experiences is the root of most human suffering. One of the
points of meditation is to directly experience the fluctuating and
transitory nature of all sense impressions.)
I am very grateful we can enjoy vacuum-tube technology at all, and that the
dark days of the late Eighties, when tube production was declining all over
the world, are now behind us. We now have the sweet pleasure of personally
creating sonic wonders from gifted vendors all over the world. We also have
the additional gratification of exposing non-audiophiles to wonderful
music, and hearing them revel in the beauty and thrill of a new experience.
The old-timers get the thrill of remembered sounds, and the younger folks
get a brand-new experience.
My personal thrill for the last few weeks is the combination of DVD, Dolby
Digital, and triode amplification ... wonderful! It brings back the Todd-AO
70mm six-track sound ... the way big-screen movies *should* sound. What's
interesting is that dialog is very intelligible and clear, but the music is
much more affecting and powerful, so the movie actually has more impact
than it does in the theatre.
This is a fun bit of audio-archeology, since we can now start to
reconstruct the Western Electric Thirties stereo demonstrations and
mid-Fifties theatre "Stereophonic Sound". People have forgotten that stereo
started with three channels, not two, and *still* sounds better in three
channels, especially with tube amplifiers. It has a much more 3-dimensional
quality, and the center channel finally does justice to the voice, which is
no longer a vague phantom image as it is with 2-speaker stereo.
The trick is to throw THX entirely out the window, and use matched
identical speakers everywhere, just like WE, RCA, Cinerama, CinemaScope,
and Todd-AO. You want power, go with PP 845's, just like the big boys did.
Three channels of 845 and Beethoven's 9th and "Lawrence of Arabia" are no
problem. Now *there's* a setup ... HDTV projector, DVD, DD, and 3 channels
of PP 845 driving three Exemplars. Dynamics, anyone?
P.S. Thank you, Mr. Purl, for starting a very interesting and illuminating
thread.
Lynn T. Olson
Editor, Valve & Tube News
E-mail: lynno@teleport.com
Ariel Speaker Page: http://www.teleport.com/~lynno/Ariel.htm
=========================================================================
From: bill gardner <wg44929@navix.net>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 09:57:39 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n391
At 12:39 AM 8/15/98 -0600, Thom Mackris wrote:
>Doug,
>
>As one who subscribes to Taoist philosophy, I share your sense of
aesthetics and environmental committment.
>
>
>
>In another post, Tom Suit <tsuit@UU.NET> said:
>
>Ah yes, the hive mentality...so we can all be good little worker drones in
>the perfect society. No thanks. Move to China if that is what you like.
>Meanwhile, I'll be commuting in my V12 powered car. And in honor of people
>like you, I always make sure I smoke the wheels at least once on Earth Day.
>
>
>We're talking about community mentality Tom!! When I read his post, my
racism detectors went haywire. By racism, I'm not specifically referring
to his mention of any specific group, but of his arrogant display of
superiority and desire to distance himself from humanity in general. Maybe
this isn't racism. Maybe he hates the entire human race (human racism?).
Tom is obviously married to the manifest destiny ethic. Expressing his
individualism by driving a V-12 and burning rubber? Come on now Tom!
Where did these individualistic thoughts come from - Road & Track? Car &
Driver? Stereophile?
It sure didn't come from Tree Hugger magazine . Tom........
are you having individualistic thoughts again ..... lets all practice ,
after me , dogma . If we all practice community mentality , can we all have
brown uniforms and matching combat boots and cute little mao type hats ?
Bill Gardner
=========================================================================
From: jc morrison <jcm@eclipse.net>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 18:39:18 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n391
bill said:
It sure didn't come from Tree Hugger magazine . Tom........
are you having individualistic thoughts again ..... lets all practice ,
after me , dogma . If we all practice community mentality , can we all
have
brown uniforms and matching combat boots and cute little mao type hats ?
Bill Gardner
but i love tree hugger magazine, its my very very favorite... does this
this mean i have to give up my lederhosen?
jc
=========================================================================
From: bill gardner <wg44929@navix.net>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 15:26:58 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n392
At 06:39 PM 8/15/98 -0700, jc morrison wrote:
>
>but i love tree hugger magazine, its my very very favorite... does this
>this mean i have to give up my lederhosen?
>jc
>
sie konnen die lederhosen tragen aber nicht mit hawaiian hemde
Billy G
=========================================================================
From: Dave Stagner <dstagner@icarus.net>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 14:24:39 -0500 (CDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n392
My, such an interesting thread, so many varied and valuable opinions....
thanks for starting it, Doug!
I've put off jumping into the fray for a couple of days... rather than
commenting on what others have said directly, i'll try a more sweeping
view now. A few different topics have come up - environmentalism,
aesthetics, and individualism are the ones i'd like to address here.
First, a note on my politics. I'm neither liberal nor conservative in the
mainstream sense. My politics are off the map. As one of my favorite
thinkers, Bob Black, stated it, "Communism and Capitalism are as different
as Coke and Pepsi". My favorite straightforward political manifesto is
Bob Black's "The Abolition of Work", which any of you can find by surfing
the 'net search engines. It's a fascinating read. Black argues that all
"work" is essentially slavery, and anything worth doing would be done
voluntarily by those who love it. Work often makes it difficult to do the
things we love, things that are socially valuable. A case in point - i
make about three times as much money as my wife, although we work the same
hours. I'm a computer analyst, but care very little for my job. She
teaches English as a Second Language, and loves her work, except for the
lousy pay, and lack of security and benefits.
My next major political influence is R. Buckminster Fuller, one of the
great geniuses of this century. Fuller's ideas can be found in his many
books. He believes that if we could abandon comparative wealth and
"Law-Cap" (Lawyer Capitalism), the standard of living for ALL humans would
skyrocket. Fuller's ideas drive much of my environmentalism. He's a
believer in simple, stable, self-sufficient systems. Rather than burning
fossil fuels or using dangerous nuclear fission for power, we should
simply tap into the countless terawatts of solar power that come to Earth
every day. Now, solar power need not be direct - Lynn Olson's "clean
hydroelectric power" is simply tapping into the solar power cycle of rain
and rivers. A more sensible approach for the rest of us would be to
replace fossil fuels with farmed biomass - cellulose can be converted to
any petroleum byproducts (after all, petroleum was once biomass).
Methane, methanol, and charcoal are all easily produced. Charcoal can
burn in existing coal-fired electric plants with minor modifications.
Methanol can be converted to gasoline and diesel oil. Et cetera. We
could easily grow enough biomass to meet the world's fuel needs and then
some, on existing farmlands.
So, to get back to Doug's concerns - it isn't CARS that are a problem,
it's FOSSIL FUELS. Get rid of the petroleum and tap into the natural
solar cycle, and we can fuel our needs and desires without guilt over
upsetting the overall chemical and thermal balance of the environment.
The ONLY reason this hasn't happened and isn't being publicly considered
is because it would destroy the profits of the mega-corporations selling
us oil (not to mention propping up pathological military dictatorships and
fighing wars for oil).
The next environmental issue is recycling. As some have already pointed
out, we're using tubes that have already been manufactured - often, tubes
and parts that would head for a landfill were it not for us. The majority
of my own amplifier (including all tubes, all iron, and the chassis) would
have wound up in a landfill had i not intervened. I won't belabor this
point.
A last environmental note... living in a small city in Iowa, i'm very
close to farmland. If you want an insult to the enviroment, it's a
cornfield! Our drinking water is literally unsafe to drink during the
spring due to farm runoff - not just pesticides, but "natural" nitrates
and nitrites that get flushed into the rivers due to our lousy tilling
practices and overuse of fertilizers. The government heavily subsidizes
farming, which is ultimately a subsidy for the agribusiness chemical
manufacturers. I'd love to see subsidies devoted to organic farming and
conservationist tilling techniques (to counteract the 50 million tons of
Iowa that goes into the Mississippi every year), but it won't happen -
government is in the business of making business rich, not protecting the
environment or assuring a healthy, sustainable future for our children.
The most beautiful spot in our area is the Rochester Cemetery, some 20
miles away. It's a cemetery that has been left as wild prairie, one of
the finest examples of Burr Oak Savannah left. Signs there state that
less than 1/10 of 1% of the original wild prairie remains in Iowa. :( If
you want to do something environmental, give up meat. Too much cornfield
goes to inefficient beef and pork production. Not that i take this
advice, mind you... then again, if meat animals were raised with the goal
of minimizing environmental impact rather than minimizing costs, that
equation might change. Meanwhile, learn from the Rochester Cemetery that
we can live in and use our environment without destroying it.
On to aesthetics... i believe it is vitally important that we live in a
beautiful world, and appreciate that beauty. This means both natural and
man-made beauty. People who admire beauty will fight to protect that
beauty. Artists will struggle to create it. In the world of DIY tube
audio, we're in an unusual position - creating the means to reproduce art
effectively. As the wise Mr Reichert has so often pointed out, music is
primarily an emotional experience, and the goal of our sound systems
should be to reproduce the emotional impact of music. As someone (Scott?)
pointed out, the power required for our flea-powered Class A tube amps
with efficient speakers is comparable to the power required by mainstream
Class AB transistor amps with inefficient speakers. If we're to feel
guilty about the energy used, we shouldn't be listening to music at all,
or confine our listening to live acoustic music.
(As an aside, i got a chance to hear beautiful acoustic music in an
intimate setting the other night... after a concert by our family's
favorite Irish folk-rock group Six Mile Bridge the other night, the "trad
police" member of the band snuck off to a back room with a couple of
friends for a hardcore Irish jam. I was the sole audience, sitting in one
corner of a square made of up me, a flute/whistle/pipes player, bazouki,
and bodhran. The blaring jukebox outside was barely noticeable, and our
ideas of imaging really get put into perspective when hearing unplugged
instruments this way)
Finally, individualism - i'm disappointed to see the dittohead accusations
of communism and group-think brought up in this forum against legitimate
environmental concerns. I'd think that the individualism of anyone who
reads and posts to Joenet should already be beyond reproach - they've
already questioned the group-think of mainstream audio. Concern over poor
resource utilization doesn't turn someone into a Maoist. Individualism
and selfishness are two different things (and let's not even consider the
poor environmental record of the communist nations). I've enjoyed
lighting the tires myself (i grew up on motorcycle drag racing), i hope my
great-great-grandchildren can enjoy it, too. That's where
environmentalism and sustainability come in. The austerity of mainstream
environmentalism and the selfish waste of its conservative counterpart are
equally wrong. We should seek a way to enjoy the benefits of focused
energy (be it music reproduction or drag racing) without long-term harm to
the world we and our children's children must live in.
A small thanks to Nick Drake, The John Renbourn Group, 6B4G triodes,
Telfunken and Amperex EL84s, and the lovely triangle plate CBS 6SN7 i
picked out in listening tests the other night for setting the mood for
this little rant. :}
- -dave
Practice beautiful randomness and act kind of senseless.
<dstagner@icarus.net>
=========================================================================
From: davidbarnett@aristotle.net (David Barnett)
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 04:09:01 GMT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n392
On Mon, 17 Aug 1998 10:14:53 +1000 (EST), peterca@ento.csiro.au wrote:
>Don't tell me that some
>quack is prescribing it [ecdysterone] to "body sculptors" with the logic that if it makes
>insects shed their skin it should make people lose weight?!
Worse, it's being promoted by some quack as a potent anabolic. Some
people are willing to put all sorts of silly things in their bodies.
DNP is one that really scares me.
- --dnb
=========================================================================
From: jc morrison <jcm@eclipse.net>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 08:24:52 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n392
Christian Rintelen wrote:
> Why not? (You just gotta get rid of the suspenders if you want to wear the
> Hawaihemd over the Lederhosen. It'll look funny otherwise. And don't tell
> me Ursula's German has become that lousy after all these years.... ;-)
>
> Christian
yeah! and whats more, that crafty ursula, merely suggesting that i wear
a hawaiian shirt with my beloved lederhosen (with tree-hugger magazine
bumperstickers on the rear end...), is proof that she couldn't possibly
be a real german. and christian, those barabaric swiss, get "rid of the
suspenders"! you should be ashamed! lederhosen wouldn't be lederhosen
without the suspenders. you must have meant to get extra suspenders,
thats right, just to be absolutely certain that they don't ever reach
the terra firma (a big foreign word just for that doug purl's sake (knit
one, etc...)). this whole thread makes me really anxious. its a great
big single-ended yodel for help. man, the things they get away with on
the internet, there ought to be some law and order around here. now if i
was in charge...
jc
=========================================================================
From: Christian Rintelen <rintelen@datacomm.ch>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 08:56:47 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n392
bill gardner wrote:
> At 06:39 PM 8/15/98 -0700, jc morrison wrote:
>
> >
> >but i love tree hugger magazine, its my very very favorite... does this
> >this mean i have to give up my lederhosen?
> >jc
> >
>
> sie konnen die lederhosen tragen aber nicht mit hawaiian hemde
> Billy G
Why not? (You just gotta get rid of the suspenders if you want to wear the
Hawaihemd over the Lederhosen. It'll look funny otherwise. And don't tell
me Ursula's German has become that lousy after all these years.... ;-)
Christian
=========================================================================
From: peterca@ento.csiro.au
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 10:14:53 +1000 (EST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n392
>>Ecdysiasm, in response to queries, is the biological term for the
>>mechanism by which some plants shed part of themselves.
>
>In the same e-mail download with which I received Doug's first post
>under this header, I also received a post from the Elite Fitness list
>with the header "Ecdysterone." Small world....
>
Ecdysterone, also known as the "moulting hormone" of insects. A pulse of
this hormone's production preceeds and triggers many of the events of
moulting that occur as an insect larva grows bigger. Ditto for the moults
that separate larval, pupal and adult stages. Don't tell me that some
quack is prescribing it to "body sculptors" with the logic that if it makes
insects shed their skin it should make people lose weight?!
Dr. Peter Campbell (peterca@ento.csiro.au)
Div. Entomology, C.S.I.R.O. Ph.61-2-62464053 or -62464158 (w)
Box 1700 Canberra A.C.T. 2601 61-2-62516213 (h)
Australia 61-2-62464173 (fax)
=========================================================================
From: Tom Suit <tsuit@UU.NET>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 14:05:42 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n392
At 12:39 AM 8/15/98 -0600, Thom Mackris wrote:
>Doug,
>
>
>In another post, Tom Suit <tsuit@UU.NET> said:
>
>Ah yes, the hive mentality...so we can all be good little worker drones in
>the perfect society. No thanks. Move to China if that is what you like.
>Meanwhile, I'll be commuting in my V12 powered car. And in honor of people
>like you, I always make sure I smoke the wheels at least once on Earth Day.
>
>
>We're talking about community mentality Tom!! When I read his post, my
racism detectors went haywire. By racism,
>I'm not specifically referring to his mention of any specific group, but
of his arrogant display of superiority >and
Hey, I never claimed to be superior. And if your racism detectors went
off, it's because they are
entirely too sensitive. Roughly one fourth of the world's population is
in China, and within China
the population is largely concentrated in the southeastern part of the
country, or along the coast.
We're talking maximum population density. So if that is the environment
you crave, that is where
you can find it. It has nothing to do with race.
>desire to distance himself from humanity in general. Maybe this isn't
racism. Maybe he hates the entire human
Hey, everything in moderation. But it's true, the more crowded it gets in
the city, the further away I
move. I don't like living in an urban environment. The city is a nice
enough place to visit, but that's
it.
>race (human racism?). Tom is obviously married to the manifest destiny
ethic. Expressing his individualism by >driving a V-12 and burning rubber?
Come on now Tom! Where did these individualistic thoughts come from -
Road & >Track? Car & Driver? Stereophile? Our development patterns
create little isolation boxes where we grow more >and more distant from our
fellow human beings. Does Tom have any idea of the shape that this planet
would be in >if all 6 billion of it's inhabitants were as piggish as we
Americans are?
Oh, please. America is at the forefront of pollution control in the world.
If you want to see a polluted/
toxic environment, visit the former eastern-bloc countries. They are the
biggest offenders.
As I told Lynn Olsen earlier, my problem with the eco-zealots is that they
pass laws and regulations
often without any basis in scientific fact. Case in point, freon. R-12
has pretty much been banned
as it is claimed to detroy the ozone layer, and that's a bad thing as ozone
protects us from the sun's
deadly UV rays. At least that's what the party line is. In fact, ozone
does nothing of the sort; normal
O2 protects us, and in the process, is turned into ozone, which then
quickly breaks down back into O2.
If we bocked out all light from the sun, we would soon have no ozone layer
at all. Why is there a big
"hole" in the ozone layer over the poles? It's dark there several months
out of the year! This has to
be the biggest scam on the public in all of history. They claim the ozone
layer is being depleted, yet
on a day with a bad air quality index, ozone is listed as one of the
pollutants that is at a high level.
Please, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain....
So here's a worthy quote: "Think for yourself and feel the walls become
sand beneath your feet."
- -Tom
=========================================================================
From: Joe Pledger <doodle@navicom.com>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 14:02:23 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n393
Tom Suit wrote:
>
> At 02:24 PM 8/16/98 -0500, Dave Stagner wrote:
-snip-
> >thinkers, Bob Black, stated it, "Communism and Capitalism are as different
> >as Coke and Pepsi".
- Should read: Democratic & Republican parties are as different as
Coke and Pepsi. ( Both are now controlled by big money concerns.) The
pendulum
has currently swung too far to the right...does a center position exist?
> If he meant this sincerely, then he has no grasp of the real world. We
> have had
> plenty of examples of all kinds throughout history, and the countries under
> communist rule *NEVER* have a high standard of living for the average citizen.
-True, but we are approaching economic control which may be as bad as
idological control in some aspects. Hey! You can't qualify for
corporate welfare
unless you're one of the fortune five hundred! The average dude
(Republican voter)
can't hope to come close to that status, yet believes there's too much
govn't control!
> > My favorite straightforward political manifesto is
> >Bob Black's "The Abolition of Work", which any of you can find by surfing
> >the 'net search engines. It's a fascinating read. Black argues that all
> >"work" is essentially slavery, and anything worth doing would be done
> >voluntarily by those who love it.
-What rock did you flip over for that one?
> Yet whenever you eliminate the profit motive, the quality of work overall
> plummets, and you end up with a bunch of drunks putting in a half day of
> work and low quality work at that. What you really need to read is "MiG
> Pilot", the autobiography of Victor Belenko (I think that's spelled right,
> it's been a while.)
- There's profit then there's PROFIT and screw the people who helped
you and hire cheaper labor. Lay off the highest paid and hire cheaper
entry level
workers. My ISP is having trouble with the local phone company (the same
one
under strike situation now) as their service line no longer handle
anything above
26KBaud (usually 24KBaud),since the phone co. started their own ISP
operation.
So here's a big phone company in competition with one of their
customers. Guess who
gets the good lines? The strike has nothing to do with that...they
apparently
laid of the good workers, and robbed the three arches for
replacements...?
> Oh yeah, the other thing you get is thriving black market.
>
> > Work often makes it difficult to do the
> >things we love, things that are socially valuable. A case in point - i
> >make about three times as much money as my wife, although we work the same
> >hours. I'm a computer analyst, but care very little for my job. She
> >teaches English as a Second Language, and loves her work, except for the
> >lousy pay, and lack of security and benefits.
>
> Technical skill costs money. I saw a recent food for thought item on
> somebody's
> web page that was something along the lines of,"If the minimum wage had
> increased
> at the same rate as the pay rates for CEOs, the mimimum wage would
> currently be
> around $41.00 per hour." Of course a jar of peanut butter would cost $30, but
> hey, everyone is well paid, right? That reminds me of the Saturday Night Live
> where they had Jimmy Carter saying,"I like to think of inflation as our
> friend.
> Now everyone can live in a million dollar home, and drive a one hundred
> thousand
> dollar car..."
CEOs get bonuses for laying off workers, closing plants, etc. whatever
drives up the stock market (which is phoney in its'self). They don't get
raises for
investing corperate funds in America.
> >My next major political influence is R. Buckminster Fuller, one of the
> >great geniuses of this century. Fuller's ideas can be found in his many
> >books. He believes that if we could abandon comparative wealth and
> >"Law-Cap" (Lawyer Capitalism), the standard of living for ALL humans would
> >skyrocket.
>
> Hey, abandon currency altogether. It works on StarTrek TNG...it has to be
> possible. Yeah right. Anyway, this has gotten so far off topic even I
> feel guilty. So I'm ducking out of the discussion. Feel free to get the
> last word in.
-So how do I pay my property taxes?
> And speaking of off topic, any thoughts on my bi-amp question?
>
> -Tom
Tom,
Thanks for the soapbox..Always bi-amp if you can get the WAF up there.
;-)
Joe Pledger
=========================================================================
From: Tom Suit <tsuit@UU.NET>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 14:31:33 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n393
At 06:39 PM 8/15/98 -0700, jc morrison wrote:
>bill said:
>
>It sure didn't come from Tree Hugger magazine . Tom........
>are you having individualistic thoughts again ..... lets all practice ,
>after me , dogma . If we all practice community mentality , can we all
>have
>brown uniforms and matching combat boots and cute little mao type hats ?
> Bill Gardner
>
>but i love tree hugger magazine, its my very very favorite... does this
>this mean i have to give up my lederhosen?
>jc
Lederhosen? Clearly, JC, you are thinking too much of your self and not
of the Party.
-Tom
=========================================================================
From: Dave Stagner <dstagner@icarus.net>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 15:12:47 -0500 (CDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n393
On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, Tom Suit wrote:
> >First, a note on my politics. I'm neither liberal nor conservative in the
> >mainstream sense. My politics are off the map. As one of my favorite
> >thinkers, Bob Black, stated it, "Communism and Capitalism are as different
> >as Coke and Pepsi".
>
> If he meant this sincerely, then he has no grasp of the real world. We
> have had
> plenty of examples of all kinds throughout history, and the countries under
> communist rule *NEVER* have a high standard of living for the average citizen.
And, with few exceptions, capitalist countries have not had high standards
of living for the average citizen either. But until you've read Bob
Black, you have no chance of understanding his point. He's an
*anarchist*. For him, capitalism and communism are both authoritarian
systems, with power coming from the barrel of a gun in the end, and the
bulk of the profits going to the well-connected few.
> > My favorite straightforward political manifesto is
> >Bob Black's "The Abolition of Work", which any of you can find by surfing
> >the 'net search engines. It's a fascinating read. Black argues that all
> >"work" is essentially slavery, and anything worth doing would be done
> >voluntarily by those who love it.
>
> Yet whenever you eliminate the profit motive, the quality of work overall
> plummets, and you end up with a bunch of drunks putting in a half day of
> work and low quality work at that. What you really need to read is "MiG
> Pilot", the autobiography of Victor Belenko (I think that's spelled right,
> it's been a while.)
You're assuming they're still working. :} Have you built your own
amplifier? How does its quality compare to commercial products? And how
much money did you make off of it? If you're like most of us, the answers
are that it's much better than most commercial products, and that you've
sunk thousands of dollars in your audio projects with virtually no return
except your own enjoyment.
Quality work does NOT come from getting paid well. Just ask any union
member. Quality work comes from people who *love* their work, and would
do it regardless of financial reward. Our family doctor is well-paid, but
i'm sure she'd still be a doctor even if she were barely getting by. The
best resturants are private businesses run directly by their owners. Et
cetera.
> Oh yeah, the other thing you get is thriving black market.
Black market in what? Black markets arise only when products are illegal,
by definition. What would be illegal to buy or sell? Don't assume that
the only alternatives to capitalism are the Soviet and Maoist models.
> Technical skill costs money. I saw a recent food for thought item on
> somebody's
> web page that was something along the lines of,"If the minimum wage had
> increased
> at the same rate as the pay rates for CEOs, the mimimum wage would
> currently be
> around $41.00 per hour." Of course a jar of peanut butter would cost $30, but
> hey, everyone is well paid, right? That reminds me of the Saturday Night Live
> where they had Jimmy Carter saying,"I like to think of inflation as our
> friend.
> Now everyone can live in a million dollar home, and drive a one hundred
> thousand
> dollar car..."
Ever heard of Linux? Open Source software? Joenet? Sometimes, the best
technology is free.
> >My next major political influence is R. Buckminster Fuller, one of the
> >great geniuses of this century. Fuller's ideas can be found in his many
> >books. He believes that if we could abandon comparative wealth and
> >"Law-Cap" (Lawyer Capitalism), the standard of living for ALL humans would
> >skyrocket.
>
> Hey, abandon currency altogether. It works on StarTrek TNG...it has to be
> possible. Yeah right. Anyway, this has gotten so far off topic even I
> feel guilty. So I'm ducking out of the discussion. Feel free to get the
> last word in.
Fuller never proposed abandoning currency, nor would i. Freeing it from
government monopolies, maybe... but again, abandoning capitalism does not
mean abandoning money.
- -dave
Practice beautiful randomness and act kind of senseless.
<dstagner@icarus.net>
=========================================================================
From: Tom Suit <tsuit@UU.NET>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 15:25:45 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n393
At 02:24 PM 8/16/98 -0500, Dave Stagner wrote:
>My, such an interesting thread, so many varied and valuable opinions....
>thanks for starting it, Doug!
>
>I've put off jumping into the fray for a couple of days... rather than
>commenting on what others have said directly, i'll try a more sweeping
>view now. A few different topics have come up - environmentalism,
>aesthetics, and individualism are the ones i'd like to address here.
>
>First, a note on my politics. I'm neither liberal nor conservative in the
>mainstream sense. My politics are off the map. As one of my favorite
>thinkers, Bob Black, stated it, "Communism and Capitalism are as different
>as Coke and Pepsi".
If he meant this sincerely, then he has no grasp of the real world. We
have had
plenty of examples of all kinds throughout history, and the countries under
communist rule *NEVER* have a high standard of living for the average citizen.
> My favorite straightforward political manifesto is
>Bob Black's "The Abolition of Work", which any of you can find by surfing
>the 'net search engines. It's a fascinating read. Black argues that all
>"work" is essentially slavery, and anything worth doing would be done
>voluntarily by those who love it.
Yet whenever you eliminate the profit motive, the quality of work overall
plummets, and you end up with a bunch of drunks putting in a half day of
work and low quality work at that. What you really need to read is "MiG
Pilot", the autobiography of Victor Belenko (I think that's spelled right,
it's been a while.)
Oh yeah, the other thing you get is thriving black market.
> Work often makes it difficult to do the
>things we love, things that are socially valuable. A case in point - i
>make about three times as much money as my wife, although we work the same
>hours. I'm a computer analyst, but care very little for my job. She
>teaches English as a Second Language, and loves her work, except for the
>lousy pay, and lack of security and benefits.
Technical skill costs money. I saw a recent food for thought item on
somebody's
web page that was something along the lines of,"If the minimum wage had
increased
at the same rate as the pay rates for CEOs, the mimimum wage would
currently be
around $41.00 per hour." Of course a jar of peanut butter would cost $30, but
hey, everyone is well paid, right? That reminds me of the Saturday Night Live
where they had Jimmy Carter saying,"I like to think of inflation as our
friend.
Now everyone can live in a million dollar home, and drive a one hundred
thousand
dollar car..."
>My next major political influence is R. Buckminster Fuller, one of the
>great geniuses of this century. Fuller's ideas can be found in his many
>books. He believes that if we could abandon comparative wealth and
>"Law-Cap" (Lawyer Capitalism), the standard of living for ALL humans would
>skyrocket.
Hey, abandon currency altogether. It works on StarTrek TNG...it has to be
possible. Yeah right. Anyway, this has gotten so far off topic even I
feel guilty. So I'm ducking out of the discussion. Feel free to get the
last word in.
And speaking of off topic, any thoughts on my bi-amp question?
-Tom
=========================================================================
From: skipm@mail.utexas.edu (skip mccrystal)
Subject: Ecdysiasm
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 16:14:52 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n393
Hallelujiah!
Finally some others are seeing the light about the ozone layer. Oxygen
does in fact block UV rays, so much so that virtually no UV ever reaches
the surface of the Earth!
This is why we have an "ozone layer" up there way above the stratosphere;
ALL of the UV gets absorbed up there in those first few inches of air.
That's why we get a "layer" rather than a gradually falling concentration
of ozone as we descend through the atmosphere.
In fact it's ground level ozone from pollution, not UV that causes sunburns
- - a secret closely held by the sunscreen industry in conjunction with the
carmakers, the trilateral commission and the manufacturers of freon
replacements. PABA and other such UV blockers actually absorb ozone
outside the skin, thus preventing sunburn. You can pretty much figure that
those pesky eco-zealot atmospheric physicists have all been bought!
Have a nice day,
Skip
(No Stimpy, Rush Limbaugh is not an authority!)
***
As I told Lynn Olsen earlier, my problem with the eco-zealots is that they
pass laws and regulations
often without any basis in scientific fact. Case in point, freon. R-12
has pretty much been banned
as it is claimed to detroy the ozone layer, and that's a bad thing as ozone
protects us from the sun's
deadly UV rays. At least that's what the party line is. In fact, ozone
does nothing of the sort; normal
O2 protects us, and in the process, is turned into ozone, which then
quickly breaks down back into O2.
If we bocked out all light from the sun, we would soon have no ozone layer
at all. Why is there a big
"hole" in the ozone layer over the poles? It's dark there several months
out of the year! This has to
be the biggest scam on the public in all of history. They claim the ozone
layer is being depleted, yet
on a day with a bad air quality index, ozone is listed as one of the
pollutants that is at a high level.
Please, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain....
=========================================================================
From: Douglas Purl <dcp@selway.umt.edu>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 16:41:14 -0600 (MDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n393
Geez, I feel like a squirrel on the freeway with all these polymaths
whizzing by. I wish whoever started this thread would have opted for more
attractive subject word. It feels too much like the broken glass grouted
atop the estate wall. I apologize too for breaking in on you while you
are preoccupied with matters regarding the smoking dress.
I think a reasonable case has been made that most tubeheads here can
disavow a charge of driving Roadmasters in their living rooms. In fact
the speeches this thread has generated reveal a picture of below-average
resource exploiters.
Thanks to the courtesy of two list members, I am in possession of both
Clinton and Dole copies of Eric Barbour's interesting treatise on tubes,
"The Cool Sound of Tubes," IEEE Spectrum, August, 1998. (Zipped Dole copy
on request.) When I get a couple of free hours, I will sit down and
compose my thoughts on the issues implicit and explicit in Barbour's
capable exposition. (Though hardly a disinterested party -- Barbour is an
engineer for Svetlana -- he nevertheless solicits the opinions of so many
other interested parties (parties who profit by tubes) that he achieves a
kind of objectivity.
There are some familiar claims -- e.g., that amplifier output xformers are
virtuous evils, conferring a beneficial form of filtering -- and revealing
spectrographs that compare noise and distortion spuriae for various
devices. The question I want to pose is have there been attempts to use
optimum devices throughout the audio chain, combining gas- and solid-state
devices according to perceived utility? Does anyone know of articles
essaying this topic? Barbour includes a bibliography, but it lists books
and journals committed to tubes. TIA.
Doug Purl
=========================================================================
From: Thomas Danley <Tom@ppci.com>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:12:53 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n393
skip mccrystal wrote:
> Hallelujiah!
>
> Finally some others are seeing the light about the ozone layer. Oxygen
> does in fact block UV rays, so much so that virtually no UV ever reaches
> the surface of the Earth!
>
> This is why we have an "ozone layer" up there way above the stratosphere;
> ALL of the UV gets absorbed up there in those first few inches of air.
> That's why we get a "layer" rather than a gradually falling concentration
> of ozone as we descend through the atmosphere.
>
> In fact it's ground level ozone from pollution, not UV that causes sunburns
> - a secret closely held by the sunscreen industry in conjunction with the
> carmakers, the trilateral commission and the manufacturers of freon
> replacements. PABA and other such UV blockers actually absorb ozone
> outside the skin, thus preventing sunburn. You can pretty much figure that
> those pesky eco-zealot atmospheric physicists have all been bought!
>
While the Trilateral commission may be a real, hidden threat, the arguement
about UV, ozone and sunburn does not hold up. Even loose clothing causes a
tan / sunburn line, the old lady across the street never goes out in the sun
and is white as a sheet, she is surrounded by the same air as me.
Lets not forget there are pretty much two sides or poles in this issue, those
who, to change something in there process, would cost them money.
On the other side you have those who have nothing monitarily to gain but are
driven to fight a percieved danger and in some cases, an element that does
stand to gain in one way or another from change.
One must keep aware of the possible motovations of both sides.
In the last 11 years we have the 9 hottest years in all (officially recorded)
weather history. Seems to me the climate "ecco zelots" that were suggesting
"global warming" 20 years ago, may be close to being able to say "I told you
so"and similarly, in 10 or 20 years, we will also know for sure about the ozone
layer and precautions taken or not, in our times.
Personally, on something as big and important as the Planet's atmosphere and
what it will be like for my children, I would tend to err on the conservative
side.
Best Regards,
Tom Danley
=========================================================================
From: Scott Grammer <tubedude@cdc.net>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 19:14:22 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n393
Tom Suit wrote:
> (snip)
> R-12
> has pretty much been banned
> as it is claimed to detroy the ozone layer, and that's a bad thing as ozone
> protects us from the sun's
> deadly UV rays. At least that's what the party line is. In fact, ozone
> does nothing of the sort; normal
> O2 protects us, and in the process, is turned into ozone, which then
> quickly breaks down back into O2.
> If we bocked out all light from the sun, we would soon have no ozone layer
> at all. Why is there a big
> "hole" in the ozone layer over the poles? It's dark there several months
> out of the year! This has to
> be the biggest scam on the public in all of history. They claim the ozone
> layer is being depleted, yet
> on a day with a bad air quality index, ozone is listed as one of the
> pollutants that is at a high level.
> (snip)
Amen. The reason various freons were banned is because DuPont was about to lose
their patents due to age, and they didn't want everybody and their brother
making freon. So they got it outlawed and created new flourocarbons with new
patents.....
Or Not.
S.G.
- --
Check out TubeDude's Webpage of Vacuum Tube Lore!
http://www.cdc.net/~tubedude/
Now with Lemon Scented Borax!
=========================================================================
From: Joe Pledger <doodle@navicom.com>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 09:22:13 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n394
Tom Suit wrote:
>
> At 02:02 PM 8/17/98 -0700, Joe Pledger wrote:
> >Tom,
> >Thanks for the soapbox..Always bi-amp if you can get the WAF up there.
> >;-)
>
> Actually, my question was that if I am going to bi-amp (I am planning on
> going that
> route) then is there an advantage to bandwidth limiting the amp by
> design, or should
> I just leave it to the external crossovers?
>
> -Tom
Tom,
I looked up the article that I had remembered when I saw your question.
It's the Spring '94 (Vol.2,#1) issue of SP magazine, by Herb Reichert.
No I haven't tried it myself yet. Just think it makes sense to deal with
the split farther upstream rather than external xovers.
Regards,
Joe Pledger
=========================================================================
From: Tom Suit <tsuit@UU.NET>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:00:33 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n394
At 06:12 PM 8/17/98 -0500, Thomas Danley wrote:
>
>
>skip mccrystal wrote:
>
>> Hallelujiah!
>>
>> In fact it's ground level ozone from pollution, not UV that causes sunburns
>> - a secret closely held by the sunscreen industry in conjunction with the
>> carmakers, the trilateral commission and the manufacturers of freon
>> replacements. PABA and other such UV blockers actually absorb ozone
>> outside the skin, thus preventing sunburn. You can pretty much figure that
>> those pesky eco-zealot atmospheric physicists have all been bought!
This is the first I have heard of this argument, and it doesn't make sense.
If this were true, you could get sunburned indoors. No, UV light gives you
your sunburn. That's why you get burned much faster in the tropics as the
sunlight has a shorter distance through air to reach you. It's also bad
at high altitudes.
>In the last 11 years we have the 9 hottest years in all (officially
recorded)
>weather history. Seems to me the climate "ecco zelots" that were suggesting
>"global warming" 20 years ago, may be close to being able to say "I told you
>so"and similarly, in 10 or 20 years, we will also know for sure about the
ozone
>layer and precautions taken or not, in our times.
Um, 20 years ago the eco-zealots were claiming that we were about to enter
another
ice age, because pollution in the atmoshpere was blocking too much light
from reaching
the ground.
How long ago does "officially recorded" history start?
- -Tom
=========================================================================
From: Tom Suit <tsuit@UU.NET>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:06:48 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n394
At 02:02 PM 8/17/98 -0700, Joe Pledger wrote:
>Tom,
>Thanks for the soapbox..Always bi-amp if you can get the WAF up there.
>;-)
Actually, my question was that if I am going to bi-amp (I am planning on
going that
route) then is there an advantage to bandwidth limiting the amp by
design, or should
I just leave it to the external crossovers?
- -Tom
=========================================================================
From: Thom Mackris <tmackris@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 18:38:38 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n395
Hi Tom <Tom Suit tsuit@UU.NET>
Perhaps my racism meter had slightly too high an input sensitivity. I'll
review my circuit parameters. Having lived in the Wild West for the last
dozen or so years (Denver, Phoenix, Sacramento) I've encountered a
considerable degree of ignorance and fear of diversity amongst the general
populace.
The automobile orientation in the West makes it all too easy for us to crawl
into our isolation bubbles to travel to our gated communities where we never
get to know each other. It's by no means perfect in New York City where I
grew up, but living in closer proximity to each other and being pedestrian
oriented does force one to learn a bit more about one's neighbor. NYC is
not without problems of course, and I too find myself shying away from urban
areas because I find life to be too crowded and noisy there for my
sensibilities. My point is, however that the automobile makes urban areas
less tolerable and not more so - a point we can agree to disagree on.
I'll try to get back on topic now and only make comments about your world
view as I perceive them to be relevant to the Joes at large.
Let's see, quoting you (Tom Suit <tsuit@UU.NET):
(1) "America is at the forefront of pollution control in the world"
(2) "If you want to see a polluted/toxic environment, visit the former
eastern-bloc countries. They are the biggest offenders"
(3) "my problem with the eco-zealots is that they pass laws and regulations
often without any basis in scientific fact"
I would agree with #1 and #2. I guess we can take your above three
statements in combination to mean that pollution, and therefor life in the
former Eastern Bloc countries is good, and that erroring on the side of
caution on behalf of the planet and our children is bad. I'm being
facetious, of course.
I contend that when a society reaches a certain level of affluence, it
has the luxury of focussing on areas other than immediate survival, such as
quality of life, a short list of which would include (a) clean air to breathe and water
to drink (b) appreciation of the arts and nature. Affluence has more to do
with why we are at the forefront of pollution control than anything.
Affluence also means however that we have the leverage to create horrific
environmental disasters.
We may be at the forefront, it doesn't mean that we are paying attention to
the big picture, and I contend that if the entire planet behaved as we do,
we'd be in deeper shit than we are at the moment. Of course, it's too late
to turn back the clock and the only solution is to use our intelligence and
resources to move through this uncomfortable stage in our societal and
technological evolution. Lynn O. touched on this, and there's no need to
repeat his arguments here.
I think/hope that all of our environmental concerns will become moot 100 to
200 years from now if we survive as a race. I liken the race's evolution as
being analogous to that of an adolescent. Our society's focus on sex &
violence that Lynn O. mentioned is but one aspect of this adolescent
hormonal frenzy. I hope that Scott Adams is not correct when he postulates
that Holodec will be the last invention of mankind.
As tube lovers, and lovers of the arts in general, we are trying to nurture
that which is the "best" in our civilization. One would hope that
appreciation of the arts and nature (and by inference, the music reproduced
on our hi-fi's) would have a civilizing effect on us as a race. The fact
that some of the most heinous war criminals in history loved the arts, does
not invalidate the value of the arts, IMO.
Regards,
Thom
=========================================================================
From: Tom Suit <tsuit@UU.NET>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 11:19:15 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n395
At 06:38 PM 8/18/98 -0600, Thom Mackris wrote:
>Hi Tom <Tom Suit tsuit@UU.NET>
>
>Perhaps my racism meter had slightly too high an input sensitivity. I'll
>review my circuit parameters. Having lived in the Wild West for the last
>dozen or so years (Denver, Phoenix, Sacramento) I've encountered a
>considerable degree of ignorance and fear of diversity amongst the general
>populace.
Hey, when I went up to Michigan for my grandmother's funeral, I noticed that
everyone behind the counter at MacDonald's had blonde hair and blue eyes. It
just didn't seem right. (I'm from the DC metro area) I felt better when we
were near Detroit.
>The automobile orientation in the West makes it all too easy for us to crawl
>into our isolation bubbles to travel to our gated communities where we never
>get to know each other. It's by no means perfect in New York City where I
>grew up, but living in closer proximity to each other and being pedestrian
>oriented does force one to learn a bit more about one's neighbor.
It makes it easier for pickpockets as well.
> NYC is
>not without problems of course, and I too find myself shying away from urban
>areas because I find life to be too crowded and noisy there for my
>sensibilities. My point is, however that the automobile makes urban areas
>less tolerable and not more so - a point we can agree to disagree on.
Actually, I'm not disagreeing on that point. What I don't like is the idea
that suburbia needs to be eliminated, and I have had people tell me that.
>Let's see, quoting you (Tom Suit <tsuit@UU.NET):
>
>(1) "America is at the forefront of pollution control in the world"
>
>(2) "If you want to see a polluted/toxic environment, visit the former
>eastern-bloc countries. They are the biggest offenders"
>
>(3) "my problem with the eco-zealots is that they pass laws and regulations
>often without any basis in scientific fact"
>
>I would agree with #1 and #2. I guess we can take your above three
>statements in combination to mean that pollution, and therefor life in the
>former Eastern Bloc countries is good, and that erroring on the side of
>caution on behalf of the planet and our children is bad. I'm being
>facetious, of course.
>
>I contend that when a society reaches a certain level of affluence, it
>has the luxury of focussing on areas other than immediate survival, such as
>quality of life, a short list of which would include (a) clean air to
breathe and water
>to drink (b) appreciation of the arts and nature. Affluence has more to do
>with why we are at the forefront of pollution control than anything.
>Affluence also means however that we have the leverage to create horrific
>environmental disasters.
Any country can produce environmental disasters. Look at Chernobyl. Look
at the
oil well fires that Saddam Hussein ordered. Heck, it isn't even limited to
industrialized society. American indians out west (Pueblos, I think) used up
all the local forestry and ended up with a dustbowl.
>We may be at the forefront, it doesn't mean that we are paying attention to
>the big picture, and I contend that if the entire planet behaved as we do,
>we'd be in deeper shit than we are at the moment.
And it is this point that I say is BS. If the rest of the planet behaved the
way we do, had the same pollution controls that we do, then their environment
would be as clean as ours. Go look - there is no comparison.
And as an example on my third point, look at the reefs in Florida. The
life on
the reefs is being destroyed largely by silt and nutrient run-off from the
land
from commercial development, golf courses, etc. Boat anchors from
recreational
boaters do a fair amount as well. But who do the environmentalists target as
the big threat? Aquarium hobbyists!! The marine aquarium industry doesn't
even make
a scratch compared to the others, and the majority of people in the hobby
maintain
the life, not use it up. (Corals are regularly bred in captivity now.) The
argument
has been made that "Well we have to start somewhere." But what really
happened is that
they lobbied the government of Florida to ban the collection of live rock,
claimed
a major victory in saving the environment, and moved on to something else.
Meanwhile,
we'll probably lose the reefs.
>I think/hope that all of our environmental concerns will become moot 100 to
>200 years from now if we survive as a race. I liken the race's evolution as
>being analogous to that of an adolescent.
If we don't survive it will be because some hot headed dictator in some
third world
country got his hands on nuclear weapons technology.
> Our society's focus on sex &
>violence that Lynn O. mentioned is but one aspect of this adolescent
>hormonal frenzy. I hope that Scott Adams is not correct when he postulates
>that Holodec will be the last invention of mankind.
I pretty much agree. Having holodecs available would cut the productivity
out of
a huge chunk of the population.
- -Tom
=========================================================================
From: "Jon Lane" <jhlane@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 19:45:43 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n396
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-sound@lists.io.com
> [mailto:owner-sound@lists.io.com]On
> Behalf Of Tom Suit
> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 1998 9:19 AM
> To: 'Joe_List'
> Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
> Hey, when I went up to Michigan for my
> grandmother's funeral, I noticed that
> everyone behind the counter at MacDonald's had
> blonde hair and blue eyes. It
> just didn't seem right. (I'm from the DC metro
> area) I felt better when we
> were near Detroit.
That would be all of the terrific Dutch citizens of our fine
State. =o)
Little known is the industrial base Michigan has *outside*
of the east side - massive international equipment makers
like Steelcase, Westinghouse, herman miller, Haworth and
many more supply the world with high-end office interiors to
the tune of billions. Typically, all of them end up on '100
best employers' lists. And of course, most have heard of
Amway, but we won't go THERE just yet...
Jon
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 18:11:37 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n398
>The ideal solution would be solar power for home electricity and
>air-conditioning, alcohol for aircraft and cars
and little for us please :-)
(For some weird reason it seems that transistor Class A
>audiophile amplifiers require a *long* time ... 24 hours ... to warm up
>uniformly and reach the full sonic potential.) Many home appliances chew up
>more power than that.
Which speaks for tube amps that only need 10 minutes
>Manufacturing tubes? Well, there's sure no shortage of 300B-alikes ... with
>the recent announcement of J.J. Electronics, that makes no less than
>*three* builders of DHT triodes in the Czech Republic. Add Western
>Electric, Svetlana, Sovtek, and uncounted myriads of back-alley factories
>in China, and there's a *lot* of capacity. Mundane pentodes are plentiful
>as well.
>
>I do have misgivings about decent "receiving" type triodes ... the most
>popular types, 12AX7, 12AU7, 12AT7, and 6DJ8 are just about the most
>nonlinear triodes that exist. The commonplace 6SN7 is about 3 to 4 times
>lower in distortion, not a small advantage. So I am hoping that somebody
>sees the light and starts making triodes as good as the triode-connected
>7788's, 437, 7044, or 7119. There's nothing stopping anyone from making a
>clone of the 7044 or 7119, changing the heater, and re-basing it so it will
>fit in a 12AU7 socket. That would yield a "super" 12AU7 with much lower
>distortion and superb plate dissipation ratings.
Why not contact PM components in UK ?
And make a real (indirect heated) triode substitute for an EL34 !
>As always, the energy problem is mostly economic and political, not
>technical. If I buy a nice energy-efficient Class AB receiver from Sanyo,
>that doesn't have much impact on the decisions made in the boardroom of
>Shell Oil. And the decisions made in that room have a far larger impact on
>global energy utilization than all the tube nuts in the the world added
>together. I would make a guess that shifting a mere 0.1% of world energy
>production from fossil to solar would outweigh the energy consumption of
>the entire consumer electronics sector.
I would like to mention that Philips Semiconductors (yes, my employer) has
a series of ICs for power supplies with low standby power consumption;
instead of the usual 5 W they now reach 1 W or lower
Guido
>Lynn T. Olson
>Editor, Valve & Tube News
>E-mail: lynno@teleport.com
>Ariel Speaker Page: http://www.teleport.com/~lynno/Ariel.htm
>
>
>
=========================================================================
From: Rick Francis <rfranci@uoft03.utoledo.edu>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm and Lederhosen
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 08:40:44 -0400 (EDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n392
> bill gardner wrote:
> > At 06:39 PM 8/15/98 -0700, jc morrison wrote:
> > >
> > >but i love tree hugger magazine, its my very very favorite... does this
> > >this mean i have to give up my lederhosen?
> > >jc
> >
> > sie konnen die lederhosen tragen aber nicht mit hawaiian hemde
> > Billy G
>
> Why not? (You just gotta get rid of the suspenders if you want to wear the
> Hawaihemd over the Lederhosen. It'll look funny otherwise.
Genau. Aber mit Hawaihemd muss Mann auch Birkenstock tragen, naturlich mit
Socken... Ganz schoen, oder?
Rick
=========================================================================
From: Douglas Purl <dcp@selway.umt.edu>
Subject: Ecdysiasm Encore
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:51:55 -0600 (MDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n442
Some may recall this thread from a few weeks ago, which I wish I had
titled otherwise. Though it is a biological term describing the shedding
of parts by a plant, it also became a flip-term with journalists a few
decades back for women who remove their clothes provocatively to the
accompaniment of a small, cheesy pit orchestra in burlesque houses.
Thus Cath Ode.
Not to stimulate the minds here, but the point of my post is to recruit
some help. I got into trouble again, this time over on the bass/DIY
loudspeaker list generalizing about tubes and transistors. One of the
exceptionally knowledgeable members has taken me to task for alleging
differing distortion spectra for tubes and SS. I would like to refer the
group and my inquisitor to the article by the Svetlana engineer that
contains spectrographs. Alas, I have lost the entire year past of my
archives. Can anyone send me the website where the article in question
has been posted?
Much obliged, in purity of essence,
General Ripper
=========================================================================
From: Douglas Purl <dcp@selway.umt.edu>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm Encore
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 17:14:16 -0600 (MDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n442
On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, evaguido wrote:
> >Not to stimulate the minds here, but the point of my post is to recruit
> >some help. I got into trouble again, this time over on the bass/DIY
> >loudspeaker list generalizing about tubes and transistors. One of the
> >exceptionally knowledgeable members has taken me to task for alleging
> >differing distortion spectra for tubes and SS. I would like to refer the
> >group and my inquisitor to the article by the Svetlana engineer that
> >contains spectrographs. Alas, I have lost the entire year past of my
> >archives. Can anyone send me the website where the article in question
> >has been posted?
>
>
> To my modest opinion, the formentioned article does not say anything to me.
> Lots of work, little correlation to what we hear. Lots of measurements, but
> I think they are in the wrong direction when it comes to correlating with
> what we hear.
>
> I can build a transistor amp with the same distortion spectra as an average
> tube amplifier. I think both amps will still sound different.
>
> I think we have a long way to go
>
> Have fun, anyhow
>
> Guido
Your opinion agrees with that of my chastiser, who charges me with
credulity. See John Murphy's interview with EE Times at
http://www.trueaudio.com/at_eetjlm.htm. Murphy is a physicist who bases
his claims on extensive testing of his own.
My original provocations on this topic on this list did not elicit much
discussion, possibly because it was understood generally that absent
possession of data dissenting and assenting opinions contribute scantily
to the discussion.
Still looking for the Rosetta Stone.
Doug Purl
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm Encore
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 00:49:20 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n442
>Not to stimulate the minds here, but the point of my post is to recruit
>some help. I got into trouble again, this time over on the bass/DIY
>loudspeaker list generalizing about tubes and transistors. One of the
>exceptionally knowledgeable members has taken me to task for alleging
>differing distortion spectra for tubes and SS. I would like to refer the
>group and my inquisitor to the article by the Svetlana engineer that
>contains spectrographs. Alas, I have lost the entire year past of my
>archives. Can anyone send me the website where the article in question
>has been posted?
To my modest opinion, the formentioned article does not say anything to me.
Lots of work, little correlation to what we hear. Lots of measurements, but
I think they are in the wrong direction when it comes to correlating with
what we hear.
I can build a transistor amp with the same distortion spectra as an average
tube amplifier. I think both amps will still sound different.
I think we have a long way to go
Have fun, anyhow
Guido
>Much obliged, in purity of essence,
>
>General Ripper
>
>
=========================================================================
From: davidbarnett@aristotle.net (David Barnett)
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm Encore
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 02:30:19 GMT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n442
On Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:51:55 -0600 (MDT), Douglas Purl
<dcp@selway.umt.edu> wrote:
>Much obliged, in purity of essence,
>
>General Ripper
You'll have to answer to The Coca Cola Company,
Sgt. Bat Guano
=========================================================================
From: "Lynn T. Olson" <lynno@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm Encore
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 14:22:18 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n443
>Still looking for the Rosetta Stone.
>
>Doug Purl
One hint: Build the forward path so it has the absolute minimum of
distortion, paying particularly attention to reducing the upper harmonics
first. This leads to a distortion spectra that is very clean ... some 2nd,
not much 3rd, and nothing else, at least to -95dB noise level. For example,
the 417A at two volts out has no visible harmonics above 2nd ... if they're
there, they're >95dB below the main signal. Try that with a transistor
sometime.
Since triodes as a group, by measurement, having the lowest and cleanest
spectra of any device ... pentodes, bipolars, MOSFETs, JFETs, hybrids, etc
... they are the device of choice for this technique. See data in VTV and
the Glass Audio article I did a while back.
If we are trying to reduce the proportion of upper harmonics, feedback is
not our friend, since it mostly reduces the lower harmonics while
generating new IM sum-and-difference terms (very small, but there). There
are also issues with dynamic stability, since the available phase margin
interacts unfavorably with reactive loads. In the worst case, with Class AB
transistor amplifiers, feedback is almost completely ineffective in
reducing crossover-notch distortion with real-world loads. The only thing
that works in the this case is to greatly increase the speed of the forward
path while increasing phase margin. All standard Matti Otala stuff first
discussed (and implemented in the Audionics CC-2) a full 20 years ago.
Also, reduce EMI noise from the power supply. Cap-bridge power supplies are
very noisy, since the silicon diodes snap-off and allow a brief oscillation
with the inductance of the power trans secondary and the capacitance of the
power supply cap bank. The only damping "Q" in this scenario is the
residual ESR of the caps ... which is why bypassing the cap bank with a
film cap frequently degrades the sonics of solid-state amplifiers. HEXFREDs
help a little bit, since they don't have a chaotic snap-off region, but the
real fix is proper filtering with inductors or a very serious fully
regulated supply. Inductors are not cheap in the low-voltage high-current
regime of transistor amps, and building full regulation entails building
the amp twice ... once to supply quiet DC, and again to actually amplify
the signal. Twice the size, twice the heatsinking, twice the cost for the
same power rating.
It does work, though ... the RE Labs LNPA-1 is by far the best transistor
amp I've ever heard, and it's a quite conventional Class AB bipolar amp
with a circuit that looks very much like an old CC-2 with full regulation
added. Another nice bonus is ultra-stiff power: 75wpc at 8 ohms, 150wpc at
4 ohms, 300wpc at 2 ohms, you get the idea. Turns out that very low
impedance rails *also* greatly reduce crossover distortion ... the Class AB
circuit actually works the way the textbook says it should.
Note *none* of these issues appear in generic Stereopile measurements, or
in the test protocols of the ABX yahoos. Yet the areas I've very briefly
highlighted above are well-known by any competent high-end amp designer.
It's the "r.a.h-e" consumers who are in the dark (of their own making, by
the way, since they consistently drive off professional designers). Their
pastime is cursing the darkness, while Joelist lights candles. How many
designs have come out of "r.a.h-e" in the last five years? In the same
time, how many in the Joelist? Nuff said.
Lynn T. Olson
Editor, Valve & Tube News
E-mail: lynno@teleport.com
Ariel Speaker Page: http://www.teleport.com/~lynno/Ariel.htm
=========================================================================
From: William Hunt <wjhunt@ccnet.com>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm Encore
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 17:36:56 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n443
Do you have a reference for the RE Labs amplifier? Web address, phone number,
etc.
Bill Hunt
Lynn T. Olson wrote:
> >Still looking for the Rosetta Stone.
> >
> >Doug Purl
>
> One hint: Build the forward path so it has the absolute minimum of
> distortion, paying particularly attention to reducing the upper harmonics
> first. This leads to a distortion spectra that is very clean ... some 2nd,
> not much 3rd, and nothing else, at least to -95dB noise level. For example,
> the 417A at two volts out has no visible harmonics above 2nd ... if they're
> there, they're >95dB below the main signal. Try that with a transistor
> sometime.
>
> Since triodes as a group, by measurement, having the lowest and cleanest
> spectra of any device ... pentodes, bipolars, MOSFETs, JFETs, hybrids, etc
> ... they are the device of choice for this technique. See data in VTV and
> the Glass Audio article I did a while back.
>
> If we are trying to reduce the proportion of upper harmonics, feedback is
> not our friend, since it mostly reduces the lower harmonics while
> generating new IM sum-and-difference terms (very small, but there). There
> are also issues with dynamic stability, since the available phase margin
> interacts unfavorably with reactive loads. In the worst case, with Class AB
> transistor amplifiers, feedback is almost completely ineffective in
> reducing crossover-notch distortion with real-world loads. The only thing
> that works in the this case is to greatly increase the speed of the forward
> path while increasing phase margin. All standard Matti Otala stuff first
> discussed (and implemented in the Audionics CC-2) a full 20 years ago.
>
> Also, reduce EMI noise from the power supply. Cap-bridge power supplies are
> very noisy, since the silicon diodes snap-off and allow a brief oscillation
> with the inductance of the power trans secondary and the capacitance of the
> power supply cap bank. The only damping "Q" in this scenario is the
> residual ESR of the caps ... which is why bypassing the cap bank with a
> film cap frequently degrades the sonics of solid-state amplifiers. HEXFREDs
> help a little bit, since they don't have a chaotic snap-off region, but the
> real fix is proper filtering with inductors or a very serious fully
> regulated supply. Inductors are not cheap in the low-voltage high-current
> regime of transistor amps, and building full regulation entails building
> the amp twice ... once to supply quiet DC, and again to actually amplify
> the signal. Twice the size, twice the heatsinking, twice the cost for the
> same power rating.
>
> It does work, though ... the RE Labs LNPA-1 is by far the best transistor
> amp I've ever heard, and it's a quite conventional Class AB bipolar amp
> with a circuit that looks very much like an old CC-2 with full regulation
> added. Another nice bonus is ultra-stiff power: 75wpc at 8 ohms, 150wpc at
> 4 ohms, 300wpc at 2 ohms, you get the idea. Turns out that very low
> impedance rails *also* greatly reduce crossover distortion ... the Class AB
> circuit actually works the way the textbook says it should.
>
> Note *none* of these issues appear in generic Stereopile measurements, or
> in the test protocols of the ABX yahoos. Yet the areas I've very briefly
> highlighted above are well-known by any competent high-end amp designer.
> It's the "r.a.h-e" consumers who are in the dark (of their own making, by
> the way, since they consistently drive off professional designers). Their
> pastime is cursing the darkness, while Joelist lights candles. How many
> designs have come out of "r.a.h-e" in the last five years? In the same
> time, how many in the Joelist? Nuff said.
>
> Lynn T. Olson
> Editor, Valve & Tube News
> E-mail: lynno@teleport.com
> Ariel Speaker Page: http://www.teleport.com/~lynno/Ariel.htm
=========================================================================
From: Mike McCall <shamrock@voyager.viser.net>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm Encore
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 20:43:53 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n444
At 05:36 PM 10/6/98 -0700, William Hunt wrote:
>Do you have a reference for the RE Labs amplifier? Web address, phone
number,
>etc.
>
>Bill Hunt
Please forgive my late entry into this thread. Way too much mail to keep up
on these days. :)
The R.E. Designs LNPA-150 mono block amps Lynn refers to are our reference
amps. I wrote the initial review of them for PF prior to sending them to
Lynn for his comments.
While I also had their linestage for review, I was so impressed by the amps
that I declined to review the linestage because I had already decided to
pursue a business relationship with the company. Under those circumstances,
I felt it would be inappropriate for me to review the linestage.
At first, Lynn didn't believe that a SS amp could sound this good. I didn't
either for that matter. However, these amps won me over on their own
merits-Something that's not very easy to do.
Please feel free to drop by our site. If you would like an information
packet sent to you, just fill our the form inder "Information". I'll be
happy to send one out to you.
Best regards,
Mike McCall
Shamrock Audio
(503) 873-3755
http://www.shamrockaudio.com
shamrock@viser.net
=========================================================================
From: irishtom@webtv.net (tom brennan)
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm--Movie Sound
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 09:49:39 -0500 (CDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n391
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Lynn---Nice post. Speaking of motion picture theater sound; the first
time I became aware of high quality sound reproduction was when I was 10
years old. My Dad took me downtown (Detroit) to see Ben-Hur, the opening
blasts of the overture made a profound impression, I'd never heard music
reproduced so cleanly and with such power. That's when the hi-fi bug bit
me and seems to have given me a taste for horn speakers. The other day I
had some money burning a hole in my pocket and I decided to buy a DVD
machine. But after a look at the swill (IMO) titles available in the
stores I decided to stick with LD and bought a CD player for my car
instead. By the way, for Joelisters around Chicago, Grants Appliances in
Joliet had by far the best prices on DVD machines; Sony 300--$430,
Panasonic 310--$500, Sony 7000--$800.
Tom Brennan
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Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 02:30:20 -0700
To: sound@deliverator.io.com
From: "Lynn T. Olson" <lynno@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm
Cc: Thom Mackris <tmackris@earthlink.net>
Sender: owner-sound@lists.io.com
Precedence: bulk
>I just recently ditched my sand-state gear which only started to sound
>o.k. after about 24 hours and wasn't 100% until about the fourth day of
>operation. I feel a lot better that my 2A3's get powered up only when I'm
>listening to them. I do think that Lynn is correct however regarding the
>total amount of energy spent on all consumer electronics being minute, and
>my good feelings are probably more aesthetic than of true substance.
Thom Mackris has brought up an important point. In a world filled with
ugliness of human origin (ever been to Calcutta?), I feel it is critically
important to cultivate beauty. People sometimes comment on the spiritual
undertone of my writing, well, that's the feeling behind it. We really do
need food for the soul, especially in the current era of ugliness of spirit
from hyper-violence in the media, ugly-minded trash-talk radio, hideous
clothes, self-mutilation, and nihilist attitudes cynically promoted by the
music industry. These things are real, and they are ugly in a spiritual
sense since they reflect attitudes of cynicism and despair. Granted, they
are empty poses most of the time (attitude is everything it seems), but
still, synthetic ugliness has the same outcome as genuine ugliness: a
blunting and dulling of the human spirit.
In some ways what we do with vacuum tubes is like Stradivarius creating
beautiful art in an age of violence and cruelty. Would the world have been
a better place if Mr. Strad had been a revolutionary instead? Probably not.
He would have died in prison and world would have lost centuries of
beautiful music. Those violins won't last forever, either ... there's a
limit to how much restoration you can do to anything.
Tubes are like a beautiful flower or a wonderful meal ... a transitory
beauty, but certainly no less sweet for that. Some of the sweetest and
deepest experiences of beauty are inevitably transitory ... that's just how
life is arranged. (Buddhism makes a big deal out of how clinging to
transitory experiences is the root of most human suffering. One of the
points of meditation is to directly experience the fluctuating and
transitory nature of all sense impressions.)
I am very grateful we can enjoy vacuum-tube technology at all, and that the
dark days of the late Eighties, when tube production was declining all over
the world, are now behind us. We now have the sweet pleasure of personally
creating sonic wonders from gifted vendors all over the world. We also have
the additional gratification of exposing non-audiophiles to wonderful
music, and hearing them revel in the beauty and thrill of a new experience.
The old-timers get the thrill of remembered sounds, and the younger folks
get a brand-new experience.
My personal thrill for the last few weeks is the combination of DVD, Dolby
Digital, and triode amplification ... wonderful! It brings back the Todd-AO
70mm six-track sound ... the way big-screen movies *should* sound. What's
interesting is that dialog is very intelligible and clear, but the music is
much more affecting and powerful, so the movie actually has more impact
than it does in the theatre.
This is a fun bit of audio-archeology, since we can now start to
reconstruct the Western Electric Thirties stereo demonstrations and
mid-Fifties theatre "Stereophonic Sound". People have forgotten that stereo
started with three channels, not two, and *still* sounds better in three
channels, especially with tube amplifiers. It has a much more 3-dimensional
quality, and the center channel finally does justice to the voice, which is
no longer a vague phantom image as it is with 2-speaker stereo.
The trick is to throw THX entirely out the window, and use matched
identical speakers everywhere, just like WE, RCA, Cinerama, CinemaScope,
and Todd-AO. You want power, go with PP 845's, just like the big boys did.
Three channels of 845 and Beethoven's 9th and "Lawrence of Arabia" are no
problem. Now *there's* a setup ... HDTV projector, DVD, DD, and 3 channels
of PP 845 driving three Exemplars. Dynamics, anyone?
P.S. Thank you, Mr. Purl, for starting a very interesting and illuminating
thread.
Lynn T. Olson
Editor, Valve & Tube News
E-mail: lynno@teleport.com
Ariel Speaker Page: http://www.teleport.com/~lynno/Ariel.htm
- --WebTV-Mail-488486732-1113--
=========================================================================
From: RALPH POWER <POWER.RALPH@epamail.epa.gov>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm -Reply
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 10:09:10 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n389
Hi Doug,
I will wade in here with my thoughts, even though this is clearly going
AWAY from tube audio.....
You shared with the group :
>One point I neglected to make is I feel selfish using tubes. Tubes seem
>to glow with a mind, with a spirit and an intelligence. It is painful for
>me to use up their gas for my pleasure.
You seem to be unhappy here, as instead of pursuing the hobby this list is about,
you periodically point out to us your disagreement with our thinking and lifestyles.
BTW, have you ever built any tube audio ? Please share THAT with us....
>I was never able to hunt -- it appalls me that men take pleasure in
>killing animals. And I had an unpleasant confrontation with myself about
>two decades ago when, during a beautiful late summer afternoon drifting
>towards evening, at a beautiful rocky spot along the deep-blue Clark Fork,
>I caught a magnificent 23" rainbow trout feeding spectacularly. It was the
>last fish I ever caught. How many times I have wished that I could
>restore his life to him, which was more magnificent than any boast I could
>make of my prowess.
How did we get to this topic ? This is starting to sound like psychotherapy, you on
the couch, all of us listening, analyzing ...
Hey Doug, you should have eaten him to help assuage your guilt, besides trout is
delicious and $8 a pound at the grocery store when you can find it. A good hunter
/ fisher eats his catch or releases it unharmed. After all the original and most
noble purpose of these sports is for food for human survival.
It's obvious the political correctors have given you great guilt complexes
in regards to energy usage and sport fishing and hunting. For that, we all
feel your intense pain.
But I personally reject all the PC guilt complexes and am truly happy with my tubes
and energy usage, trash production, hunting, fishing, and my use of guns for sport
and protection and how I'm personally destroying the planet and on and on and on.......
Just call me selfish and self centered, but I call myself thinking for myself and making
my own judgements about life and this world I live in. Such is the price for a free
society. So we can agree to disagree.
I promise in the future to let you think as you will without pointing up my differences
with your interests if you will do me the same favor. Maybe you should seek out
alt.guilt.complexes for some real support.
So let's go have some fun with tube audio and not fret so in public...Lighten up !
Just sharing MY thoughts, : > )
- Ralph
=========================================================================
From: Rick Francis <rfranci@uoft03.utoledo.edu>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm--Tons of animals killed for vegetables?
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 09:09:43 -0400 (EDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n390
On Fri, 14 Aug 1998, Ron Bales wrote:
> This fish you caught, he was going to die. You did not, in any way,
> increase the rate of mortality of trout. You ate it? That is a necessary
> thing to do. And even if you'd had Spam instead, something would have been
> killed for you to eat. Vegetarianism really isn't an answer, wanna talk
> about how many tons of living animal are killed per acre of plowing.
>
Was the trout going to spawn or yield eggs after that point in its life?
Okay, how many tons of living animal are killed per acre of plowing? Are
we talking worms, one-celled animals, or what? This sounds phony, utterly
bogus to me. Please explain.
Anyhow, Doug's point had more to do with maximizing resources than
minimizing suffering. Ron, even you can't dodge the point that animal
protein is an extremely inefficient way to feed people, in terms of land
and water use. Whether that should matter to you or me or anyone is a
separate issue.
Just read in NYT yesterday that the alliance between ranchers and
environmentalists in Colorado is stronger than ever, and the result has
been more and more land held in trusts, specifically to impede development
of condos and luxury homes in remote areas. So much for simplistic views
of good and bad here.
Speaking of which ... Ron, did you ever decide on a way to explain US
forces in Haiti, or did you just throw your hands up and decide it's
beyond our ken?
- --Rick
=========================================================================
From: Ron Bales <rbales@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm--Tons of animals killed for vegetables?
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 17:27:42 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n391
Rick Francis wrote:
>
> On Fri, 14 Aug 1998, Ron Bales wrote:
>
> > This fish you caught, he was going to die. You did not, in any way,
> > increase the rate of mortality of trout. You ate it? That is a necessary
> > thing to do. And even if you'd had Spam instead, something would have been
> > killed for you to eat. Vegetarianism really isn't an answer, wanna talk
> > about how many tons of living animal are killed per acre of plowing.
> >
> Was the trout going to spawn or yield eggs after that point in its life?
>
> Okay, how many tons of living animal are killed per acre of plowing? Are
> we talking worms, one-celled animals, or what? This sounds phony, utterly
> bogus to me. Please explain.
Got me, how many rabbits, field mice and other burrowing mammals; plenty of
slitheries, snakes and lizards and such; lots and lots of crickets, worms
other insects, never mind all the creatures that can't co-exist with
mono-culture farming. Go find a fallow field and tell me what you find.
Killing living things is killing living things it is always wrong unless
justified. There are rules that we've established about these things -
many of us perceive them differently - it is well within my sense of right
and wrong to kill and eat a beautiful fish while all the while admiring it
for being a beautiful fish.
And like what do you eat? Browse?
> Anyhow, Doug's point had more to do with maximizing resources than
> minimizing suffering. Ron, even you can't dodge the point that animal
> protein is an extremely inefficient way to feed people, in terms of land
> and water use. Whether that should matter to you or me or anyone is a
> separate issue.
Well the question of that fish was not an issue of efficiency, but of
morality and aesthetics and our relationship to other creatures.
> Speaking of which ... Ron, did you ever decide on a way to explain US
> forces in Haiti, or did you just throw your hands up and decide it's
> beyond our ken?
Remember I started out by saying that we should not have troops in Haiti.
My opinion is the occupation arises from: misguided humanitarianism; a
desire to limit illegal immigration to Florida, a state whose Governor
ordered a militia call out to blockade the Federal immigration centers
(Yes, it was that bad) and an ill considered desire to use the military as
an armed peace corp on foreigners and instrument of social engineering on
Americans. All of which spring from consistent and coherent, if wrtong
headed, world view.
You have made up your mind that there is some sort of secret US plot to see
that Haiti is properly oppressed - I've given up on trying to point out the
sillimess of this. You first claimed the confluence of interest between US
business and political influences overthrew Aristide, until I pointed out
how many millions US businesses lost. Then, in a thread in which you
purported to undermine conspiratorial thinking you proposed that the CIA
feared that other latin countries would follow Haiti's example - as if:
they would; that would be important.
Haiti's politicians have been bought and sold by the Dominicans throughout
recent history, do you think they are more likely to have had an interest
in undermining progressive government in Haiti? How many Haitian cane
workers do they hire a year? How much do they pay? How much do they pay
the Haitian President for the privelege of "recruiting" them and not
complaining when they get sent back unpaid? How much did Aristide take?
Did he have a choice? Was the new minimum wage, scheduled to take effect
three days after the coup greater or lesser than what the Haitian workers
in the DR were getting? My best guess is that the coup cost somewhere
between $800K and $2M, would that have been a wise investment for the DR?
Would it have been a wise investment for Spaulding? The CIA? ANYONE in
America? Does this mean that I believe the DR bought the coup, it makes a
hell of a lot more sense than some wierd little plot to see that other
countries don't elect leftist priests.
Fact is, you know dick about Haiti but insist that somehow it fits your
Unified Theory of US Hegemony. Arguing with your particular combination of
fixed ideas and rhetoric is futile, I won't do it.
ROn
=========================================================================
From: jc morrison <jcm@eclipse.net>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm--Tons of animals killed for vegetables?
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 18:41:30 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n391
well, i don't know about you guys but i didn't come this far up the food
chain just to eat greens...
munch.
=========================================================================
From: Daniel Normolle <monk@umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Ecdysiasm--Tons of animals killed for vegetables?
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 14:35:59 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n392
Rick Francis wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Aug 1998, Ron Bales wrote:
>
> > This fish you caught, he was going to die. .....
> Was the trout going to spawn or yield eggs after that point in its life? .....
>
Take it offline, boys.
dpn
=========================================================================
From: "Johari Yip" <hfyip@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: ECL82/grid bias consideration.
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 09:10:27 +0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n487
Hi everyone,
Nice to be back on the list and to know it's active as ever. Well, I'm
toying with the idea of using the ECL82 as a driver for the 845 running
"low and hot". I'll be hooking up the ECL82 in a "mu-stage" configuration
and thinking of grid biasing the 845. Is there a "rule of thumb" or special
considerations/requirements that must be taken into account with regard to
the RC coupling before the 845 if I were to consider grid biasing
(i.e.value of the coupling cap and grid resistor to the negative bias)?
I would also appreciate fellow joelister's opinion with regard to the pros
and cons of "cathode bias" as compared to "grid bias".
Thanks in advance for any contributions.
Cheers,
Johari
=========================================================================
From: "william gaw." <whg@tiac.net>
Subject: Ed Billeci
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 13:49:55 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n225
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Ed: Please contact me with your e-mail address so I can discuss =
something with you. Bill Gaw
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<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Ed: Please contact me with your =
e-mail address=20
so I can discuss something with you. Bill Gaw</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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=========================================================================
From: AirGapped@aol.com
Subject: Eddie B's next project
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:38:49 -0400 (EDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n037
In a message dated 97-09-23 09:49:57 EDT, Mr. Currie wrote:
<<
A key feature, I believe, of Eddie B's next project.
>>
Now this could be a lot of fun...all of us speculating on what Eddie B's next
project will look like....the winner buys all rounds of beer at the next
VSAC.
To start off we know that the Dunker Factor will be hard for Eddie to enhance
or expand. He probably achieved the summit the first time out.
Could the tube specimen be of a physically larger size?
Or will he fool us and build a 400 pound quad chassied 1.25 watt tennis ball
amp?
Join in the speculation....I might even buy the beers if it is fun enough <g>
love ya eddie b
P.S. when ya gonna collect your booty Eddie???
Mike
=========================================================================
From: E Billeci <tube@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Eddie B's next project
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:20:00 -0700 (PDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n038
Nitrogen huh? hmmm....
At 10:38 AM 9/23/97 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 97-09-23 09:49:57 EDT, Mr. Currie wrote:
>
><<
> A key feature, I believe, of Eddie B's next project.
> >>
>
>Now this could be a lot of fun...all of us speculating on what Eddie B's next
>project will look like....the winner buys all rounds of beer at the next
>VSAC.
I am open to suggestions. I am thinking about something with a glass
cooling shround around the tube (an 849 or 851) these would be a minimalist
looking pair of amps, rather oposite my last project. All iron is hidden,
the fronts are rounded glass with the opt tube inside, convection cooled.
parafeed out, maybe active load.
>
>To start off we know that the Dunker Factor will be hard for Eddie to enhance
>or expand. He probably achieved the summit the first time out.
>
>Could the tube specimen be of a physically larger size?
4 chassis, (two per channel) possibly heavier overall,
about 3-1/2 ft tall, 1 ft wide, 2ft deep each. each amp would have an
external power
supply, matching in appearance, with 872 mercury vapor rects.
Speaking of Tom, where are you, buddy?
>
>Or will he fool us and build a 400 pound quad chassied 1.25 watt tennis ball
>amp?
Hey! who snitched?
>
>Join in the speculation....I might even buy the beers if it is fun enough <g>
>
>love ya eddie b
>
>P.S. when ya gonna collect your booty Eddie???
>
>Mike
Thanks brother.
I am still trying to decide which model to step-up to,
for that "Killer Potato".
How about a nickel parafeed 437A..
P.S., anyone who wants to show off their gear can do so on my website,
(www.teleport.com/~tube)where I have devoted space for pics of your amps,
circuit descriptions, contact info, etc. speaker projects are also welcome,
as well as other homebrew stuff. Email me a GIF or JPG, or pop a photo in the
mail, and I'll scan it in. There are some pretty cool amps up there already.
I would also like to set-up a "Joe-netter" page, with pics of listmembers,
etc. Let me know what you guys think.
Webspace is cheap, so it's no big deal, and I am having alot of fun with this
webpage stuff.
Ed
=========================================================================
From: tubesguy@execpc.com (Patrick Currie)
Subject: Re: Eddie B's next project
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 17:54:44 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n038
>P.S., anyone who wants to show off their gear can do so on my website,
>(www.teleport.com/~tube)where I have devoted space for pics of your amps,
>circuit descriptions, contact info, etc. speaker projects are also welcome,
>as well as other homebrew stuff. Email me a GIF or JPG, or pop a photo in the
>mail, and I'll scan it in. There are some pretty cool amps up there already.
>
> I would also like to set-up a "Joe-netter" page, with pics of listmembers,
>etc. Let me know what you guys think.
>
> Webspace is cheap, so it's no big deal, and I am having alot of fun with this
>webpage stuff.
>
>Ed
To anyone who hasn't checked this out yet, do it. Very nice page, nice
idea to show the work of other folks, and some pictures of some very cool
guys indeed. ;-) - Pat
Pat Currie (tubesguy@execpc.com)
(608)233-8956, 266-9290 (Madison, WI)
=========================================================================
From: RALPH POWER <POWER.RALPH@epamail.epa.gov>
Subject: Eddie B's next project -Reply
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:53:51 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n037
Mike said,
>Now this could be a lot of fun...all of us speculating on what Eddie B's next
>project will look like....the winner buys all rounds of beer at the next VSAC.
Hate to spoil the fun, but I was just talkin to Ed Bellici yesterday about his next project....
Seems it's an "8 something-or-other" amp with output tubes that are 1.5 FEET tall
and the output trannies are so big that he HAS to do parafeed.
Around 200 WATTS per channel SE, with forced air cooling on the output tubes if
I recollect.
I'm sure he can fill you in on the details.
- Ralph
=========================================================================
From: Torsten.Loesch@FinanceManager.Finance.FinanceAndInformation.enhar-ha.nthames.nhs.uk
Subject: Re: Eddie B's next project -Reply
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 19:52:14 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n038
Hi,
> Hate to spoil the fun, but I was just talkin to Ed Bellici yesterday about
> his next project....
>
> Seems it's an "8 something-or-other" amp with output tubes that are 1.5
FEET
> tall and the output trannies are so big that he HAS to do parafeed.
>
> Around 200 WATTS per channel SE, with forced air cooling on the output
tubes
> if I recollect.
Boy ohh boy. Serious DUNKER Factor here. 1.5 Feet Tubes...... Sounds like
someone is having a heck of good time...
Later Thorsten.
=========================================================================
From: "Bill Gaw" <whg@tiac.net>
Subject: Ed Fallon
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 16:12:35 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n475
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- ------=_NextPart_000_0372_01BE0420.1B7E9E20
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Am interested in purchasing one of your oscilloscopes. Please forward =
your e-mail address to me or call at 603-778-0186 Bill Gaw
- ------=_NextPart_000_0372_01BE0420.1B7E9E20
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Am interested in purchasing one of =
your=20
oscilloscopes. Please forward your e-mail address to me or call at=20
603-778-0186 Bill Gaw</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0372_01BE0420.1B7E9E20--
=========================================================================
From: "Bill Gaw" <whg@tiac.net>
Subject: Ed Fallon
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 11:59:42 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n489
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BE0EFD.19770DA0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Scope arrived in good shape. Alan Wright is here and wants to know if =
you have another one he could purchase, preferably not a storage type. =
If you have one he could takemine on monday back to Munich. Thanks. Bill
- ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BE0EFD.19770DA0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Scope arrived in good shape. Alan =
Wright is here=20
and wants to know if you have another one he could purchase, preferably =
not a=20
storage type. If you have one he could takemine on monday back to =
Munich.=20
Thanks. Bill</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
- ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BE0EFD.19770DA0--
=========================================================================
From: Benjamin A Lyons <bal03@gnofn.org>
Subject: Edgarhorn Help
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 14:40:50 -0600 (CST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n535
I've been lurking on this list for awhile and am now beginning to dive
into the wonderful world of DIY. I recently bought Edgarhorn mid's with
Dynaudio D-54 drivers. The deal also included Polydax tweeters. I plan to
start by using what is at hand: EV SP12's (102 dB, supposedly) in
Aristocrat cabinets powered (?) by a Fisher SA-100 (PP 6b5q's) amp for the
bass. I'm planning to use my Audio Note Oto integrated (PSE EL84's) for
the mid's and tweeters. The Oto has preamp outs so I can biamp, and the
Fisher has level pots so I hope I can match the levels. Amoung the many
questions: I know the Aristocrats don't have much deep bass, but will the
midbass blend at all with horn mids? Would I be better off with a 15"
woofer in a large sealed box (I may be able to swing a trade with the EV
stuff)? Would a first order low pass filter be the way to go, or do I need
something more elaborate? Any advantage to a passive filter before the
bass amp instead of after? What quality/brand of inductor is recommended?
I've been told that all I should need for the highpass is a 40uf cap, with
a 4uf cap for the tweeter. From the data I have from Madisound about the
Polydax, it appears the Edgar system uses the tweeter at least an octive
below it optimal range. Are there better tweeter choices to match with the
midhorn at a reasonable price? I do have a pair of EV T-35's (16 ohm) I
was planning to try, but I believe they are several dB less sensitive than
the Dynaudio horn combo, and I am not planning/able to triamp at the
moment.
I deeply appreciate any ideas and suggestions, as well as pointers to
articles or resources for further info or insight, as I am a rank newbie
and am finding out the more I learn about speakers and crossovers, the
less I may ever hope to know (i.e.: phase, time alignment, impedance,
etc.)
Benjamin Lyons
=========================================================================
From: Robert Root <rrjlife@earthlink.net>
Subject: Edgar's New Horn:
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 16:40:47 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n517
I was at Bruce Edgar's business for the first time today. I heard
his new production full range horn-called the Slim Line. It is about
twelve inches wide and maybe 40 inches tall in one cabinet of multiply
wood. No MDF. The bass horn will use 2-5" drivers down to 60hz and
falls off below at 12db/octave. The mid horn used a JBL driver and a
Fostex Tweeter on top. At 100 db it just sounded really nice. We
listened to Shefield percussion at 4 watts. They were very dynamic
with good bass. We then hooked up his refrigerator 35hz bass horn. It
was too much so I turned it off. These new slimlines with a small
footprint will be at the CES show in January and should generate some
interest. Price around $1800 with black grill cloth.
-rr
=========================================================================
From: Chris Beck <n9zes@execpc.com>
Subject: Re: Edgar's New Horn:
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 20:04:50 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n518
Bruce was telling me about these the last time I talked to him inquiring
about his horn shell kits. I was interested to see what sort of bass he
was going to get out of such a small enclosure. I was quite impressed
with his Sytem 80 and "refrigerator" sub at Jack's place in Vegas. Very
"unhornlike" with one hell of a lot of presence and punch. Having never
heard horns before, I would have never known they were if I didn't know
it.
Hence, that is why I'm trying to convince my better half that we need some
"end tables" by the entertainment center. His 80Hz straight horns, mid
horn, and tweets would really be nice. But, I don't think I can steal the
real estate in our living room. Gotta get that basement audio room done
up soon.
chris beck
Robert Root wrote:
> I was at Bruce Edgar's business for the first time today. I heard
> his new production full range horn-called the Slim Line. It is about
> twelve inches wide and maybe 40 inches tall in one cabinet of multiply
> wood. No MDF. The bass horn will use 2-5" drivers down to 60hz and
> falls off below at 12db/octave. The mid horn used a JBL driver and a
> Fostex Tweeter on top. At 100 db it just sounded really nice. We
> listened to Shefield percussion at 4 watts. They were very dynamic
> with good bass. We then hooked up his refrigerator 35hz bass horn. It
> was too much so I turned it off. These new slimlines with a small
> footprint will be at the CES show in January and should generate some
> interest. Price around $1800 with black grill cloth.
>
> -rr
=========================================================================
From: "Bill Gaw" <whg@tiac.net>
Subject: Re: Edgar's New Horn:
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 09:14:08 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n518
His 400-20K wooden straight horn using TAD 2002 or 4001 drivers is the top
of the line. Superb imaging and sound when mated to a suitable bass horn.
Bill.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Chris Beck <n9zes@execpc.com>
To: rrjlife@earthlink.net <rrjlife@earthlink.net>
Cc: sound@deliverator.io.com <sound@deliverator.io.com>
Date: Thursday, December 03, 1998 10:11 PM
Subject: Re: Edgar's New Horn:
>Bruce was telling me about these the last time I talked to him inquiring
>about his horn shell kits. I was interested to see what sort of bass he
>was going to get out of such a small enclosure. I was quite impressed
>with his Sytem 80 and "refrigerator" sub at Jack's place in Vegas. Very
>"unhornlike" with one hell of a lot of presence and punch. Having never
>heard horns before, I would have never known they were if I didn't know
>it.
>
>Hence, that is why I'm trying to convince my better half that we need some
>"end tables" by the entertainment center. His 80Hz straight horns, mid
>horn, and tweets would really be nice. But, I don't think I can steal the
>real estate in our living room. Gotta get that basement audio room done
>up soon.
>
>chris beck
>
>Robert Root wrote:
>
>> I was at Bruce Edgar's business for the first time today. I heard
>> his new production full range horn-called the Slim Line. It is about
>> twelve inches wide and maybe 40 inches tall in one cabinet of multiply
>> wood. No MDF. The bass horn will use 2-5" drivers down to 60hz and
>> falls off below at 12db/octave. The mid horn used a JBL driver and a
>> Fostex Tweeter on top. At 100 db it just sounded really nice. We
>> listened to Shefield percussion at 4 watts. They were very dynamic
>> with good bass. We then hooked up his refrigerator 35hz bass horn. It
>> was too much so I turned it off. These new slimlines with a small
>> footprint will be at the CES show in January and should generate some
>> interest. Price around $1800 with black grill cloth.
>>
>> -rr
>
>
=========================================================================
From: "Richard A. Francis" <rfranci@uoft03.utoledo.edu>
Subject: Re: Edgar's New Horn -- efficiency?
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 00:17:09 -0500 (EST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n518
On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Robert Root wrote:
> I was at Bruce Edgar's business for the first time today. I heard
> his new production full range horn-called the Slim Line. It is about
> Fostex Tweeter on top. At 100 db it just sounded really nice. We
> listened to Shefield percussion at 4 watts. They were very dynamic
Does that mean 100db SPL? What is the db/1w/1m for these, Robert?
Rick
=========================================================================
From: Robert Root <rrjlife@earthlink.net>
Subject: Edgar's-Slim Line:
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 22:56:49 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n518
More Info:
100db/1w/1m
Fostex Tweeter, JBL 5" mid, 2X5" drivers made for JBL-bass
Lowest Freq. 55HZ
Crossover first order--8-ohms
Bruce claims that they listened to all the powered subs on the
market and the only one that is fast and works well with horns
to his supprise was the Sunfire! I have not heard it.
The Slim Line will be ready for demo in his shop in one week.
rr
=========================================================================
From: "Johari Yip" <hfyip@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: Edgar's-Slim Line:
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 17:13:53 +0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n518
- ----------
> From: Robert Root <rrjlife@earthlink.net>
> To: sound@deliverator.io.com
> Subject: Edgar's-Slim Line:
> Date: Friday, December 04, 1998 2:56 PM
>
> Bruce claims that they listened to all the powered subs on the
> market and the only one that is fast and works well with horns
> to his supprise was the Sunfire! I have not heard it.
Can fellow joenetter share some experiences of their regarding the Sunfire?
Cheers,
Johari
=========================================================================
From: "Stephen P. Lee" <splee@bromus.biol.sfu.ca>
Subject: Re: Edgar's-Slim Line:
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 10:38:55 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n519
On Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 05:13:53PM +0800, Johari Yip wrote:
> ----------
> > From: Robert Root <rrjlife@earthlink.net>
> > To: sound@deliverator.io.com
> > Subject: Edgar's-Slim Line:
> > Date: Friday, December 04, 1998 2:56 PM
> >
> > Bruce claims that they listened to all the powered subs on the
> > market and the only one that is fast and works well with horns
> > to his supprise was the Sunfire! I have not heard it.
>
> Can fellow joenetter share some experiences of their regarding the Sunfire?
>
> Cheers,
> Johari
>
And the Hsu subs?
Thanks,
Stephen
=========================================================================
From: WBamb83392@aol.com
Subject: Re: Edgar's-Slim Line:
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 00:05:07 EST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n520
In a message dated 98-12-04 13:55:37 EST, splee@bromus.biol.sfu.ca writes:
> On Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 05:13:53PM +0800, Johari Yip wrote:
> > ----------
> > > From: Robert Root <rrjlife@earthlink.net>
> > > To: sound@deliverator.io.com
> > > Subject: Edgar's-Slim Line:
> > > Date: Friday, December 04, 1998 2:56 PM
> > >
> > > Bruce claims that they listened to all the powered subs on the
> > > market and the only one that is fast and works well with horns
> > > to his supprise was the Sunfire! I have not heard it.
> >
> > Can fellow joenetter share some experiences of their regarding the
Sunfire?
>
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Johari
> >
> And the Hsu subs?
>
> Thanks,
> Stephen
Does anyone know how I could get in touch with Dr. Edgar? I live about 30
miles from his shop, apparently, and I have quite a large number of subs.
Some of them might be agile enough to work with a horn, and I'd love to try.
- -Eric Bamberg
=========================================================================
From: Chris Beck <n9zes@execpc.com>
Subject: Re: Edgar's-Slim Line:
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 07:52:00 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n521
Here ya' go, Eric!
Dr. Bruce Edgar (Edgarhorn)
Box 1515
Redondo Beach, CA 90278
310 370 1302
FAX 371 8085
Chris Beck
see my webpage at: http://www.execpc.com/~n9zes
- -------
WBamb83392@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 98-12-04 13:55:37 EST, splee@bromus.biol.sfu.ca writes:
>
> > On Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 05:13:53PM +0800, Johari Yip wrote:
> > > ----------
> > > > From: Robert Root <rrjlife@earthlink.net>
> > > > To: sound@deliverator.io.com
> > > > Subject: Edgar's-Slim Line:
> > > > Date: Friday, December 04, 1998 2:56 PM
> > > >
> > > > Bruce claims that they listened to all the powered subs on the
> > > > market and the only one that is fast and works well with horns
> > > > to his supprise was the Sunfire! I have not heard it.
> > >
> > > Can fellow joenetter share some experiences of their regarding the
> Sunfire?
> >
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Johari
> > >
> > And the Hsu subs?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Stephen
>
> Does anyone know how I could get in touch with Dr. Edgar? I live about 30
> miles from his shop, apparently, and I have quite a large number of subs.
> Some of them might be agile enough to work with a horn, and I'd love to try.
>
> -Eric Bamberg
=========================================================================
From: William Eckle <wmeckle@uswest.net>
Subject: Re: Edgar's-Slim Line:
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 08:39:23 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n521
At 07:52 AM 12/5/98 -0600, Chris Beck wrote:
>Here ya' go, Eric!
>
>Dr. Bruce Edgar (Edgarhorn)
I have a later address:
Edgarhorn
2113 S Vermount
Torrance CA. 90502
(310) 782 8076 Voice
(310) 371 8085 Fax.
<bold><color><param>ffff,0000,0000</param>-=Bill Eckle=-
</color></bold>wmeckle@uswest.net
<italic><color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>Phoenix, Arizona
USA</color></italic>
=========================================================================
From: Chris Beck <n9zes@execpc.com>
Subject: Re: Edgar's-Slim Line:
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 09:43:41 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n521
Thanks Bill, for correcting me. I have his current address at work.
The one I posted was one I dug up from Deja News.
Sorry for any inconvenience!
Chris
William Eckle wrote:
> At 07:52 AM 12/5/98 -0600, Chris Beck wrote:
> >Here ya' go, Eric!
> >
> >Dr. Bruce Edgar (Edgarhorn)
>
> I have a later address:
> Edgarhorn
> 2113 S Vermount
> Torrance CA. 90502
> (310) 782 8076 Voice
> (310) 371 8085 Fax.
>
> -=Bill Eckle=-
> wmeckle@uswest.net
> Phoenix, Arizona USA
=========================================================================
From: postmast@musicworks.co.nz (Stephen Delft)
Subject: Re: Edicron tubes
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 20:06:24 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n046
> valves made by EI in the erstwhile Yugoslavia, called Edicron, and
> they sound just like good GE KT66 should (snip)
..A small question here, Andre... I'm not quite clear from your
post... Are these EI tubes actually labelled "KT66", or are they
another type number from EI, which _sound_ like KT66's in your amp?
- Stephen
=========================================================================
From: andre@indigo.ie (Andre Jute)
Subject: Re: Edicron tubes & an organ horn remembered
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 15:57:21 +0100 (BST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n046
Sorry for the confusion, Stephen. They are KT66. Since someone is bound to
ask, I don't know how much. Fellow who sent them got them on Quad II bought
in Japan as a package deal. (He paid a *very* great of money by British QII
standards for the amps which admittedly are said to be truly mint, a set of
matched used GE, a set of matched NOS GE, these EI tubes also matched--and
a few Mullard EF86 I would have given him FOC.) You can probably get EI
tubes from PM, the Gold Dragon labellers of Chinese tubes who actually sell
anything that turns a profit, or Billington or Chelmer will source any
valve for you and are reliable and sometimes cheaper than PM.
My client said his NOS GE KT66 needed burning in. But my memory of NOS GE
was that they sounded fine well within the few hours that a few years ago I
ran an amp with them, though this wasn't on a Quad but on an organ amp--no
name on the chassis--whose rebuilding an organ specialist farmed out to me
because he knew of my interest in Quad. GE KT66=Quad-like, see?--the minds
of organ builders move in mysterious ways.
To digress a moment. I never saw the organ itself (maybe it was a builtin
job, rebuilt in situ) but the organ man was rebuilding the speaker for it
in his shop and I did see and hear that, a horn fully three, possibly three
and a half feet to a side of footprint and five feet high that looked to be
exponential rather than tractrix and when rebuilt had startling bass slam
from a 12" driver the name of which didn't then ring any bells with me (it
was before I became interested in SE and horns; not any of the British
names, therefore American), but poor HF extension, so that the midrange
sounded a little odd until you got used to it.
Coupla things about that horn returned to memory when I got interested in
SET/Horns myself. One was how crudely its inside was finished; journeyman
joinery rather than carpentry never mind cabinet skills had been applied;
the outside was beautiful though, a work of art. The other was that corner
reflectors had been lined with cork, which struck me as odd since I had
just been experimenting with a TL and discovered that the best-measuring
and sounding reflectors are bathroom tiles with the cavity behind filled
with concrete. I have no idea whether the cork was added after the speaker
left the factory, perhaps in an earlier rebuild, in an effort to remove HF
from the horn mouth.
Andre
At 8:06 pm 27/9/97, Stephen Delft wrote:
>> valves made by EI in the erstwhile Yugoslavia, called Edicron, and
>> they sound just like good GE KT66 should (snip)
>
>..A small question here, Andre... I'm not quite clear from your
>post... Are these EI tubes actually labelled "KT66", or are they
>another type number from EI, which _sound_ like KT66's in your amp?
> - Stephen
Andre Jute
andre@indigo.ie
Communication Jute
the main index to the pages we support for lovers of classical music, for
writers, and for audiophiles is at
http://www.foundmark.com/ComJute/ComJuteF1.html
=========================================================================
From: Torsten.Loesch@FinanceManager.Finance.FinanceAndInformation.enhar-ha.nthames.nhs.uk
Subject: Edicron tubes (ECC82/83 - any good?)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 17:48:47 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n046
Hi all,
> > valves made by EI in the erstwhile Yugoslavia, called Edicron, and
Ahhh. Gotcha. I can pick them up fairly Cheap, Edicron Tubes I mean
and I need two ECC83 and two ECC82 for my Pre-Amp project. Are they
any good - I mean has anyone tried?
Later Thorsten
=========================================================================
From: andre@indigo.ie (Andre Jute)
Subject: Re: Edicron tubes (ECC82/83 - any good?)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 01:38:19 +0100 (BST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n046
At 5:48 pm 27/9/97,
Torsten.Loesch@FinanceManager.Finance.FinanceAndInformation.enh wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>> > valves made by EI in the erstwhile Yugoslavia, called Edicron, and
>
>Ahhh. Gotcha. I can pick them up fairly Cheap, Edicron Tubes I mean
>and I need two ECC83 and two ECC82 for my Pre-Amp project. Are they
>any good - I mean has anyone tried?
>
>Later Thorsten
No to trying their ECCs.
Can you also get the KT66 cheap? Where?
Andre
Andre Jute
andre@indigo.ie
Communication Jute
the main index to the pages we support for lovers of classical music, for
writers, and for audiophiles is at
http://www.foundmark.com/ComJute/ComJuteF1.html
=========================================================================
From: "T. Loesch" <ezee_e@hotmail.com>
Subject: EDISON 60 Amplifier Kit - Initial Impressions
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 04:24:22 PDT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n378
Hi all you cool Dudettes and Dudes,
I just took delivery of my Edison 60 Amp-Kit. As there have been a few
Questions about this recently in the Tubes NG, I thought I let you have
my first Impressions....
Fairly detailed Info on the Kit can be found on the web here:
http://www.hi-fidelity.co.uk/edison/
My impression of the Quality of the Major Parts is quite favourable.
Most
importantly, the Output Transformers are serious hunks of Iron. Indeed,
as our Girls at reception had to receive the Packet I ended up promising
to buy
them lunch because they where seriously annoyed about the weight of the
parcel
;-)....
As the Edison can be connected either as Parallel Single Ended Amp or
Push-Pull
Amp the Output Transformers have an Airgap. The Core-Size looks right
for about
30W in SE.
The Output Transformer has Output Tap's for 2, 4 and 8 Ohm and the
Primary is made up from four identical Windings, which allows for a wide
range
of Connection Options.
I have seen similar Output Transformers priced at 150 US Dollar each, so
the
Output Transformers account probaly for almost half the cost of the Kit.
As Self-Biased Push-Pull Ultralinear connected Amplifier an Output of
30Watt is
claimed, for PSE Ultralinear 18/20W....
An Option is available to use a fixed bias Class AB Circuit delivering
about 50
Watt Ultra-Linear, however I do not think this a very advisable option,
still
if you need the Watt's....
The Mains-Transformer in the Standard Kit is a little on the small side,
however still sufficent. It is a 100mm Diameter toroidal Affair, larger
than what most japanese 2 X 100VA Mid-fi Amplifiers sport.
A second Transformer can be purchased for about $110 and fitted with
obvious
benefits.
The "Star" of the Show is actually the Casework. Anyone who has seen the
Maplin
4-20 Kit (it has just the right looks for the "Honey look what followed
me
home" Crowd) will know what one does not want sitting in ones Equipment
Rack....
The Chassis is actually of exactly the same style as used by Alema (the
Company
behind Edison) in the reknowned "Audion" Range of SE Amplifiers. Even
without the optional polished stainless steel front/top Plate and
without the optional wooden side-cheeks the Amp will look rather nice.
In line with many other Audion-Amplifiers the Edison is actually an
"integrated
Amp" with three Inputs and a Volume Control....
An Alps Blue Volume Control is offered as optional Extra (~$ 16) over
the part
provided as standard and I for one would recommend this Upgrade
highly....
The Socketry provided as standard is pretty basic, better RCA Jacks and
Binding
Posts can be purchased from Edison/Alema or at your nearest Electronic
Store....
For the record, I received the optional Sockets and Binding-Posts, and
the
Binding Posts are a lot better than what I normally fit, the RCA Jacks
of the
usual "Tiffany Style" Design with PTFE Insulation.
The Quality of the remaining Parts (Capacitors, Resistors and so on) is
what I
usually call "Industrial", meaning no fancy Boutique Cap's or Black Gate
Electrolytics, but then what do you expect for a Kit price of about 650
US
Dollar?
The supplied Valves are four Sovtek EL34G and four Sovtek 6922
Input/Driver
Valves.
Considering the Price as 30 Watt Class Push-Pull Kit, the $ 650 may seem
not
such huge bargain, until one considers the Range of possible Options....
The basic Kit can be a 30 Watt Ultra-Linear Push-Pull or 20 Watt
Ultralinear
Single Ended Amp (competition for the GTA SE-40 brewing here maybe?).
Triode
Connection is of course possible and the Amp features the (IMHO)
completely
indispensable output tapping to accommodate a wide range of Speakers....
It is quite possible to start with the basic Kit and at a later stage
(when
funds allow) to upgrade the Unit to Dual Mono Powersupplies for example.
Lastly, If I'm not mistaken, the two 3.7V 4A Heater-Windings per Mains-
Transformer (not used in the Kit) make a nice rectified and filtered 5V
for a 300B Filament and the Output Transformer certainly looks beefy
enough to make (a slightly marginal) but competent OPT for a 300B PSE
Amp....
How'z dat?
With all options fitted (both the "Visual Helps" that make the Amplifier
look "pretty" and all the electronic Improvements) I'd dare say, that I
cannot wait to put the Amp together and have it playing....
A full review will be available eventually in the Pages of TNT-Audio
where I
will cover all the various connection Options and their sonical impact
as well
as the sonical results from fitting the various Upgrade Kits....
In the meantime I'll be posting a few impressions while I go along in
the
rec.audio.tubes NG....
Kind regards Thorsten.
======================================
e-mail:
Thorsten@tnt-audio.com
Visit TNT-Audio on the Web - the only advertising
free audio web-zine.
http://www.tnt-audio.com
======================================
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
From: kjartan@ejs.is
Subject: Effective speakers
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:41:43 -0000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n176
Hi,
When seeking out effective commercial speakers to use with triodes, has
anyone auditioned the Cerwin Vega AL-1000 (1inch tweet, 8inch midrange
and 15inch bass). Is this a usable home speaker or is it best used by
traveling DJ's on a budget.
Best regards
Kjartan Bergsson
=========================================================================
From: "Jeff Brouwer"<jbrouwer@mail.crc.com>
Subject: Effect of R on PS Impedance--long
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 98 11:09:01 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n448
Hi all,
Guido brought up a good point in a recent post--I thought I'd try and
stimulate a little more development of this thread regarding damping
of a PS filter section with resistance.
When I was building my Reichert amps a couple years ago I was curious
about Herb's passion for low dcr chokes and big mains transformers,
and also was surprised by his choice of relatively small value caps in
his pi filter. Being new to this, I had to do the math to figure out
what was going on--I'll summarize and hope that I don't offend anyone
with such a basic post.
Looking into the pi filter from the amp side, there is a bleeder
resistor shunting a standard pi, which is clearly a tank circuit that
is going to resonate at some frequency. With low series-resistance
caps and a low dcr choke, the Q of this circuit will be very high and
the output resistance of the ps will thus be very high near the
resonance frequency. The advantage of this is that the higher the
tank Q, the faster the phase lag of the filter reaches its final value
and, hopefully, this takes the effect of the ps phase lag out of play
for bass notes of concern. The trick is to make sure the filter
resonance is at a low enough frequency. Increasing either L or C will
decrease this frequency. Increasing the DCR of the choke or the
series resistance of the caps will increase the damping and may cause
phase lag at low bass frequencies--note that using a higher dcr choke
of higher inductance may cause no net effect on the filter phase lag
at a given (say 20 Hz) frequency; likewise for bigger caps with bigger
series resistance. There are other reasons we may not want to
increase the DCR of the choke or the resistance of the
caps--increasing choke DCR increases the PS impedance over the whole
frequency range (neglecting choke shunt capacitance for now...), and
series resistance in caps is a bad thing in terms of hf noise
rejection and, again, increased PS impedance.
Because I'm new to this, I had no feel for what the relative
importance of the various components--is it better to have a higher
dcr and inductance? How much DCR is too much? What about cap
resistance? etc, etc. In order to find out, it's not too hard to
come up with the equations decribing the output impedance; the only
thing remotely challenging it to model the impedance behavour of the
rectifier tube as it varies over conduction cycle. Whatever you do
with that, you need to add the resistance of the mains secondary and
the reflected impedance from the primary. I believe the DCR of the
power trans is not nearly as important as the resistance of the filter
elements. (It does help with noise immunity though.)
What I found with my modelling is that the Reichert PS (when
implemented with the components I used) has a resonance low enough in
frequency to get out of the way of low bass notes. (I used a 2.6H, 21
ohm, 300 ma choke you can get from Hammond.) (Typical chokes have
more inductance at currents less than the design center--anyone know
what the sensitivity is? i.e what is dH/dI ?)
Sorry for the long post, corrections are appreciated. I would
especially like to hear more about techniques for maximizing RF
immunity in ps design.
-jeff
=========================================================================
From: Paul Joppa <pdj@ISDNseattle.net>
Subject: Re: Effect of R on PS Impedance--long
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 12:24:04 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n449
Jeff Brouwer wrote:
> ...snip... There are other reasons we may not want to
> increase the DCR of the choke or the resistance of the
> caps--increasing choke DCR increases the PS impedance over the whole
> frequency range (neglecting choke shunt capacitance for now...), and
> series resistance in caps is a bad thing in terms of hf noise
> rejection and, again, increased PS impedance.
Since the rest of the PS is shunted by the final cap, I doubt the DCR
of the choke plays buch of a part in PS impedance at high frequencies.
> ...snip... the only
> thing remotely challenging it to model the impedance behavour of the
> rectifier tube as it varies over conduction cycle.
I've been assuming that the conduction period is short for cap-in
supplies, so it's approximately out of the circuit. For choke-in, the
conduction period is long, almost continuous, so the transformer
(essentially just resistance; the power line impedance is low) and
rectifier is effectively in series with the choke.
> What I found with my modelling is that the Reichert PS (when
> implemented with the components I used) has a resonance low enough in
> frequency to get out of the way of low bass notes. (I used a 2.6H, 21
> ohm, 300 ma choke you can get from Hammond.) (Typical chokes have
> more inductance at currents less than the design center--anyone know
> what the sensitivity is? i.e what is dH/dI ?)
I measured the Triad 10H 90mA choke that AES sells. Here's what I got,
at ~12AC:
0 mA DC: 13.3H
25mA: 12H
50mA: 11.1H
75mA: 10.6H
90mA: 9.8H
100mA: 9.3H
120mA: 7.6H
(My choke-checker wouldn't go over 120mA in its present form.)
hth,
- -Paul Joppa
>
> Sorry for the long post, corrections are appreciated. I would
> especially like to hear more about techniques for maximizing RF
> immunity in ps design.
>
> -jeff
>
>
>
>
=========================================================================
From: "Jeff Brouwer"<jbrouwer@mail.crc.com>
Subject: Re[2]: Effect of R on PS Impedance--long
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 98 02:28:50 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n449
Good point about the cap--I was off base there. The DCR of the choke
(and any added series R) actually improves RF/EMI rejection at very
high frequencies. Once the final cap stops acting like a cap (which
happens at surprisingly low frequencies for some cheap electrolytics),
the series R and cap form a divider and noise is attenuated. Also
brings up the importance of a good cap at the filter output.
A trick I've seen used on some equipment built here at work is a stack
of ceramic caps in parallel shunting power to critical devices.
Usually 3, sometimes more, starting at .1mf, then .01mf, .001mf, etc.
Have not tried this yet, but will soon. First need to figure out how
to use this RF analyzer...
-j
______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________ Subject: Re: Effect of R on PS
Impedance--long
Author: Paul Joppa <pdj@ISDNseattle.net> at Internet Date:
10/10/98 12:24 PM
Jeff Brouwer wrote:
> ...snip... There are other reasons we may not want to
> increase the DCR of the choke or the resistance of the
> caps--increasing choke DCR increases the PS impedance over the
whole > frequency range (neglecting choke shunt capacitance for
now...), and > series resistance in caps is a bad thing in terms
of hf noise
> rejection and, again, increased PS impedance.
Since the rest of the PS is shunted by the final cap, I doubt the DCR
of the choke plays buch of a part in PS impedance at high frequencies.
> ...snip... the only
> thing remotely challenging it to model the impedance behavour
of the > rectifier tube as it varies over conduction cycle.
I've been assuming that the conduction period is short for cap-in
supplies, so it's approximately out of the circuit. For choke-in, the
conduction period is long, almost continuous, so the transformer
(essentially just resistance; the power line impedance is low) and
rectifier is effectively in series with the choke.
> What I found with my modelling is that the Reichert PS (when
> implemented with the components I used) has a resonance low
enough in > frequency to get out of the way of low bass notes.
(I used a 2.6H, 21 > ohm, 300 ma choke you can get from Hammond.)
(Typical chokes have
> more inductance at currents less than the design center--anyone
know > what the sensitivity is? i.e what is dH/dI ?)
I measured the Triad 10H 90mA choke that AES sells. Here's what I got,
at ~12AC:
0 mA DC: 13.3H
25mA: 12H
50mA: 11.1H
75mA: 10.6H
90mA: 9.8H
100mA: 9.3H
120mA: 7.6H
(My choke-checker wouldn't go over 120mA in its present form.)
hth,
-Paul Joppa
>
> Sorry for the long post, corrections are appreciated. I would
> especially like to hear more about techniques for maximizing RF
> immunity in ps design.
>
> -jeff
>
>
>
>
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: Effect of R on PS Impedance--long
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 23:55:23 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n457
At 12:24 10-10-98 -0700, Paul Joppa wrote:
>Jeff Brouwer wrote:
>> ...snip... There are other reasons we may not want to
>> increase the DCR of the choke or the resistance of the
>> caps--increasing choke DCR increases the PS impedance over the whole
>> frequency range (neglecting choke shunt capacitance for now...), and
>> series resistance in caps is a bad thing in terms of hf noise
>> rejection and, again, increased PS impedance.
>
>Since the rest of the PS is shunted by the final cap, I doubt the DCR
>of the choke plays buch of a part in PS impedance at high frequencies.
No, but the ESR of that last cap does (for differential mode signals)
Guido
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Effect of R on PS Impedance--long
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 23:55:26 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n457
At 02:28 11-10-98 -0500, Jeff Brouwer wrote:
>
> Good point about the cap--I was off base there. The DCR of the choke
> (and any added series R) actually improves RF/EMI rejection at very
> high frequencies. Once the final cap stops acting like a cap (which
> happens at surprisingly low frequencies for some cheap electrolytics),
Most do a good job unill 10 MHz
> the series R and cap form a divider and noise is attenuated. Also
> brings up the importance of a good cap at the filter output.
Another choke in series with the "normal" one should do the job. Due to the
high parasitic capacitance its impedance lowers at higher frequencies. An
addiional HF choke helps by then
> A trick I've seen used on some equipment built here at work is a stack
> of ceramic caps in parallel shunting power to critical devices.
> Usually 3, sometimes more, starting at .1mf, then .01mf, .001mf, etc.
> Have not tried this yet, but will soon. First need to figure out how
> to use this RF analyzer...
Take care paralleling Caps. The risk of additional reonances is there !
Guido
> -j
>
>
> ______________________________ Reply Separator
> _________________________________ Subject: Re: Effect of R on PS
> Impedance--long
> Author: Paul Joppa <pdj@ISDNseattle.net> at Internet Date:
> 10/10/98 12:24 PM
>
>
> Jeff Brouwer wrote:
> > ...snip... There are other reasons we may not want to
> > increase the DCR of the choke or the resistance of the
> > caps--increasing choke DCR increases the PS impedance over the
> whole > frequency range (neglecting choke shunt capacitance for
> now...), and > series resistance in caps is a bad thing in terms
> of hf noise
> > rejection and, again, increased PS impedance.
>
> Since the rest of the PS is shunted by the final cap, I doubt the DCR
> of the choke plays buch of a part in PS impedance at high frequencies.
>
> > ...snip... the only
> > thing remotely challenging it to model the impedance behavour
> of the > rectifier tube as it varies over conduction cycle.
>
> I've been assuming that the conduction period is short for cap-in
> supplies, so it's approximately out of the circuit. For choke-in, the
> conduction period is long, almost continuous, so the transformer
> (essentially just resistance; the power line impedance is low) and
> rectifier is effectively in series with the choke.
>
> > What I found with my modelling is that the Reichert PS (when
> > implemented with the components I used) has a resonance low
> enough in > frequency to get out of the way of low bass notes.
> (I used a 2.6H, 21 > ohm, 300 ma choke you can get from Hammond.)
> (Typical chokes have
> > more inductance at currents less than the design center--anyone
> know > what the sensitivity is? i.e what is dH/dI ?)
>
> I measured the Triad 10H 90mA choke that AES sells. Here's what I got,
> at ~12AC:
> 0 mA DC: 13.3H
> 25mA: 12H
> 50mA: 11.1H
> 75mA: 10.6H
> 90mA: 9.8H
> 100mA: 9.3H
> 120mA: 7.6H
>
> (My choke-checker wouldn't go over 120mA in its present form.)
>
> hth,
> -Paul Joppa
> >
> > Sorry for the long post, corrections are appreciated. I would
> > especially like to hear more about techniques for maximizing RF
> > immunity in ps design.
> >
> > -jeff
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
=========================================================================
From: "Riesz, Ted - PETFISH" <Ted.Riesz@mailhost.dpie.gov.au>
Subject: egg shells
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 09:39:21 +1000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n397
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
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I wrote previously>One article from 1952 suggests replacing the dust
cap of a speaker cone with an egg shell cut below the maximum diameter,
looks a bit like a Lowther phase plug, to improve hi freq response. Of
course, first drain the innards.
Paul Butterfield wrote> Hi Ted, No, but the idea is one which
I'll try with a Dremmel tool. BTW, does the article mention *which* end
of the egg to use? I would imagine the more pointed end.
I do not have the article here at work. Will check over the
weekend. But from memory it does not refer to which end to cut off.
However, it does suggest going beyond the max circumference (ie you use
the larger part of the egg shell).
Regards
Ted Riesz
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=========================================================================
From: davidbarnett@aristotle.net (David Barnett)
Subject: Re: egg shells
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 00:44:50 GMT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n398
On Fri, 21 Aug 1998 09:39:21 +1000, "Riesz, Ted - PETFISH"
<Ted.Riesz@mailhost.dpie.gov.au> wrote:
>One article from 1952 suggests replacing the dust
>cap of a speaker cone with an egg shell cut below the maximum diameter,
>looks a bit like a Lowther phase plug, to improve hi freq response. Of
>course, first drain the innards.
Chicken eggs limit one to a certain range of voice-coil diameters. I
guess we'll need Emu or Ostrich eggs for those big 4" JBL coils....
<G>
- --dnb
=========================================================================
From: RALPH POWER <POWER.RALPH@epamail.epa.gov>
Subject: Eico HF-81
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 14:18:22 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n002
Hi All,
Good to have the joe-net up and running again, enjoyed the beer trivia.
I have the chance to buy an old Eico HF-81 integrated amp for $20.00!
It is in fair condition, missing the top cover, but supposedly works. It is a 6BQ5 PP
with 14w/ch. The controls are kind of strange, with a FOCUS control (!?) but the
tranny's look to be somewhat more substantial than most. It has all the tubes.
Now a few ignorant questions:
Should I scarf this thing to fix up ? Could it be converted to DHT outputs?
If not, could I use the iron to build anything else? Anyone know the impedance of
the output tranny's?
Any opinions or comment appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
- Ralph
=========================================================================
From: RALPH POWER <POWER.RALPH@epamail.epa.gov>
Subject: Eico HF-81
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 08:14:59 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n002
Hi All,
Good to have the joe-net up and running again, enjoyed the beer trivia.
I have the chance to buy an old Eico HF-81 integrated amp for $20.00!
It is in fair condition, missing the top cover, but supposedly works. It is a 6BQ5 PP
with 14w/ch. The controls are kind of strange, with a FOCUS control (!?) but the
tranny's look to be somewhat more substantial than most. It has all the tubes.
Now a few ignorant questions:
Should I scarf this thing to fix up ? Could it be converted to DHT outputs?
If not, could I use the iron to build anything else? Anyone know the impedance of
the output tranny's?
Any opinions or comment appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
- Ralph
=========================================================================
From: Rick Francis <rfranci@uoft03.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Eico HF-81
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 09:23:32 -0400 (EDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n002
> I have the chance to buy an old Eico HF-81 integrated amp for $20.00!
Definitely buy it. The iron is worth it. I just got the HF-86, power amp
version of same...
>
> It is in fair condition, missing the top cover, but supposedly works. It is a 6BQ5 PP
Ralph, I might have an extra cover, believe it or not. I have a couple of
Eico covers, and I think one is for the HFT-90 tuner, and the larger one
is for an HF-81. I'll check.
>
The HF-81 uses a Williamson driver circuit. I have the schematic and can
mail it...
Rick
=========================================================================
From: Scott Grammer <gesic@cdc.net>
Subject: Re: Eico HF-81
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 02:35:36 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n002
RALPH POWER wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Good to have the joe-net up and running again, enjoyed the beer
> trivia.
>
> I have the chance to buy an old Eico HF-81 integrated amp for $20.00!
> (snip)
>
> Should I scarf this thing to fix up ?
Yes! Then carefully ship it to me! I will protect you from the evil
pentodes!
> Could it be converted to DHT outputs?
I suppose.... With the right screwdrivers, anything can be converted to
anything!
> If not, could I use the iron to build anything else?
Yes!
> Anyone know the impedance of
> the output tranny's?
10K p-p.
> This is not a bad sounding little amp, although a Dyna ST-35 or Sca
> 35, or one of the Fishers of the era will beat it, IMHO.
Cheers!
S.G.
- --
"To save every cog and wheel is the first
precaution of intelligent tinkering." -Aldo Leopold.
Check out TubeDude's Webpage of Vacuum Tube Lore!
http://www.cdc.net/~gesic
=========================================================================
From: Scott Grammer <gesic@cdc.net>
Subject: Re: Eico HF-81
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 02:41:57 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n002
RALPH POWER wrote:
> The controls are kind of strange, with a FOCUS control (!?)
P.S. The Focus control is just a balance control.
S.G.
- --
"To save every cog and wheel is the first
precaution of intelligent tinkering." -Aldo Leopold.
Check out TubeDude's Webpage of Vacuum Tube Lore!
http://www.cdc.net/~gesic
=========================================================================
From: RALPH POWER <POWER.RALPH@epamail.epa.gov>
Subject: Re: Eico HF-81 -Reply
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 13:34:37 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n002
Hi Again,
Thanks to all who replied to my inquiry for information on the Eico HF-81.
I knew that I could get the real scoop on this one from the all the expertise on the list.
I feel now it would be wrong to hack it up, so I'll definately go and get it and clean it up
and give it some TLC that it justly deserves. I'll try it out and see how it sounds on my
Lowthers if I can get it up and running.
I'll keep everyone informed on how it goes and sounds.
BTW, I found a website that gives a short blurb, pictures, and schematic on this amp.
It's at: http://www.engr.uark.edu/~lar/fireamps.html
Thanks again,
- Ralph
=========================================================================
From: Dave Stagner <dstagner@icarus.net>
Subject: Eico Model 377
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 18:57:33 -0500 (CDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n337
Got an Eico Model 377 signal generator. It doesn't work. Anyone got a
schematic for this puppy? I'd like to know what's supposed to be where
before i start poking around.
- -dave
Practice beautiful randomness and act kind of senseless.
<dstagner@icarus.net>
=========================================================================
From: Joe Pledger <doodle@navicom.com>
Subject: Re: Eico Model 377
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 21:07:34 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n337
Dave Stagner wrote:
>
> Got an Eico Model 377 signal generator. It doesn't work. Anyone got a
> schematic for this puppy? I'd like to know what's supposed to be where
> before i start poking around.
>
> -dave
>
> Practice beautiful randomness and act kind of senseless.
> <dstagner@icarus.net>
Dave,
Mine is a model 379. Probably a whole different critter, but I can x-rox
the manual/scematic if you can use it.
Joe Pledger
=========================================================================
From: "Steve Morrison" <tboy@firebottle.com>
Subject: Re: Eico Model 377
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 02:39:01 -700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n337
On 8 Jul 98 at 21:07, Joe Pledger spewed:
> Mine is a model 379. Probably a whole different critter, but I can x-rox
> the manual/scematic if you can use it.
Joe,
What is the tube complement in the 379?
The 377 uses 2-6K6, 2-6SJ7, 1-6SN7.
____/) ____ /)
/ \ / \/ tboy@firebottle.com
S.A.M { || }
\____/ \____/ http://www.firebottle.com/
=========================================================================
From: Dave Wakeman <wakemand@rferl.org>
Subject: Eico St70
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 97 09:17:53 -0000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n042
Hi,
I have a chance to pick up the Eico ST70 integrated amp for around $190.
Does anyone care to comment on this amp?
Thanks,
Dave Wakeman
=========================================================================
From: Grover Gardner <groverg@bellatlantic.net>
Subject: Re: Eico St70
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:06:30 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n043
At 9:17 AM +0000 9/25/97, Dave Wakeman wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I have a chance to pick up the Eico ST70 integrated amp for around $190.
>Does anyone care to comment on this amp?
I'd definitely grab this one. It's a good amp and Eico's are getting
scarce. Their resale value is very good these days...
Grover Gardner
groverg@bellatlantic.net
=========================================================================
From: "alfred trower" <sedht@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Eico ST 70
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 07:07:01 PST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n183
Hi gang,
Well, thanks to some excellent advice, I'm now the proud owner of an
Eico ST70. I went over with my tube tester, tested all of the tubes,
which by the way tested like new, and promply plunked down $150 and
walked out with the unit.
Looking over the schematic and the tubes themselves, Eico most certainly
used a rather interesting mix of tubes for this amp. The phono stage
looks like a pretty standard 12ax7 phono preamp with what appears to be
RIAA eq in a shunt feedback arrangement. More interesting is the line
stage, which uses a 7247, which appears to be a disimilar dual triode.
The output stage uses a 12ax7 in what appears to be a driver
arrangement, a 6sn7 phase splitter driving the 7591a outputs, which are
running in a fixed bias arrangement.
Well, this thing sounds pretty good, but from the looks of it, could
benefit from some tweeking. I'm going to replace all of the coupling
caps, the caps in the RIAA, and possibly a few selected resistors. I'll
also try to bypass the tone controls completely, along with some of the
other "features" that run the signal thru switches. At least to start
with.
Thanks again for all of the advice, but I liked Grover's comment best,
"Grab it Al."
Al
Alfred Trower
Consultant, Client/Server Systems
Supply Chain Specialist
- ----------------------------------
"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to
those who cannot fly." Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
From: Jonathan Morrison <ppdiva@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Eico ST 70
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 17:54:24 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n184
At 07:07 AM 2/5/98 PST, you wrote:
>
>Looking over the schematic and the tubes themselves, Eico most certainly
>used a rather interesting mix of tubes for this amp. The phono stage
>looks like a pretty standard 12ax7 phono preamp with what appears to be
>RIAA eq in a shunt feedback arrangement.
Well, this thing sounds pretty good, but from the looks of it, could
>benefit from some tweeking.
>Al
I had an Eico HF85 preamp which I thought was the best sounding 12ax7 based
design that I ever heard. According to Sam's Photofact (and tracing mine)
but unlike the schematic someone has posted on their website (I can't
remember who), the phono stage was a 12ax7 section running without
feedback, into a section with EQ feedback going from its plate to its grid.
It had lots of gain and a dynamic quality that was very involving. It
should be no problem to recreate that circuit in your ST70, and would be a
great sounding tweek. I'm not sure if I can lay my hands on my schematic,
but you might just try moving the feedback and using the same values as
stock in your ST70- I can't imagine that Eico would change their 12ax7
design that much from one product to the next. JDM
=========================================================================
From: "Owen Young" <oyoung@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Eico ST 70
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:45:13 -1200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n184
Alfred
Having had some experience tweaking in my bad ol high end days, i've often
found that the most beneficial gains were had from improving P/S parts,
possibly because often the P/S was often not considered as important as the
"signal" portions of the circuits and ended up often with so-so parts in
many places. Eg. replacing big wattage carbon composition resistors with
say a beefy Mills wirewounds. P/S seems to improve everything!
Just a 0.02c thought,
Owen
Owen Young
Auckland, New Zealand
oyoung@clear.net.nz
- ----------
> From: alfred trower <sedht@hotmail.com>
> To: sound@deliverator.io.com
> Subject: Re: Eico ST 70
> Date: 05 February 1998 03:07
>
> Hi gang,
>
> Well, thanks to some excellent advice, I'm now the proud owner of an
> Eico ST70. I went over with my tube tester, tested all of the tubes,
> which by the way tested like new, and promply plunked down $150 and
> walked out with the unit.
>
> Looking over the schematic and the tubes themselves, Eico most certainly
> used a rather interesting mix of tubes for this amp. The phono stage
> looks like a pretty standard 12ax7 phono preamp with what appears to be
> RIAA eq in a shunt feedback arrangement. More interesting is the line
> stage, which uses a 7247, which appears to be a disimilar dual triode.
> The output stage uses a 12ax7 in what appears to be a driver
> arrangement, a 6sn7 phase splitter driving the 7591a outputs, which are
> running in a fixed bias arrangement.
>
> Well, this thing sounds pretty good, but from the looks of it, could
> benefit from some tweeking. I'm going to replace all of the coupling
> caps, the caps in the RIAA, and possibly a few selected resistors. I'll
> also try to bypass the tone controls completely, along with some of the
> other "features" that run the signal thru switches. At least to start
> with.
>
> Thanks again for all of the advice, but I liked Grover's comment best,
>
> "Grab it Al."
>
> Al
>
> Alfred Trower
> Consultant, Client/Server Systems
> Supply Chain Specialist
> ----------------------------------
> "The higher we soar the smaller we appear to
> those who cannot fly." Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
>
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
From: "Lynn T. Olson" <lynno@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Eico ST 70 and tone controls in general.
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:01:04 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n183
>So my suggestion is, yes, eliminate tone controls if you really feel you
>need to, but
>with a bypass switch rather than wholesale elimination. This way they're
>there when
>you need them.
>
>________________________________________________ Marc Stager
Hey hey! Now there's an article waiting to be written ... "Tone Controls
for Music Lovers." Rather than the usual trashy 12AX7 w/feedback circuit,
why not do it right for a change, using decent tubes and a non-feedback
topology? You'd probably have to reach back to the archaic LC controls of
the 1930's, but why not?
Do it right, and there might even be an interesting secondary market for
the studio-recording prosound crowd ... an interesting addition to their
sonic pallette they can't get on their 64-channel mixer.
Lynn T. Olson
E-mail: lynno@teleport.com
Web: http://www.teleport.com/~lynno/Ariel.htm
Editor, Valve & Tube News
=========================================================================
From: Marc Stager <ssound@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Eico ST 70 and tone controls in general.
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 14:54:07 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n183
At 07:07 AM 2/5/98 PST, you wrote:
>Hi gang,
>
>Well, thanks to some excellent advice, I'm now the proud owner of an
>Eico ST70.
...
>Well, this thing sounds pretty good, but from the looks of it, could
>benefit from some tweeking. I'm going to replace all of the coupling
>caps, the caps in the RIAA, and possibly a few selected resistors. I'll
>also try to bypass the tone controls completely, along with some of the
>other "features" that run the signal thru switches. At least to start
>with.
>
>Alfred Trower
Alfred,
I can't believe this attitude about "high end" preamps lacking tone controls.
I find it an essential feature to alter the sound of records and CDs,
particularly
Cds, to what I like to hear. Taking them out is like going to a
restataurant and not
being allowed to use salt and pepper. Having a simple bass and treble slope
on your
preamp is nothing compared to the battery of eqs used by recording
engineers in the
making of your records and discs. Are you certain, beyond any doubt, that
they were
always 100% correct in their judgement?
I have a 1963 Marantz 7, tweaked by Larry Smith of PAC, and the controls are
bypassed at their center detents. (Not part of the tweaks, that was how
they were
designed). I wouldn't want to be without them.
So my suggestion is, yes, eliminate tone controls if you really feel you
need to, but
with a bypass switch rather than wholesale elimination. This way they're
there when
you need them.
________________________________________________ Marc Stager
=========================================================================
From: "alfred trower" <sedht@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Eico ST 70 and tone controls in general.
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 13:44:03 PST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n184
Marc Stanger wrote:
>I find it an essential feature to alter the sound of records and CDs,
>particularly
>Cds, to what I like to hear.
Well, I don't listen to much in the way of CD's, and I've always
prefered products that keep the signal path as uncluttered as possible
>Taking them out is like going to a
>restataurant and not
>being allowed to use salt and pepper.
Well, If you are going to the right resauraunts you really shouln't need
salt and pepper. ;-).
>So my suggestion is, yes, eliminate tone controls if you really feel
you
>need to, but
>with a bypass switch rather than wholesale elimination. This way
they're
>there when
>you need them.
An excellent piece of advice. I think I'll take it :-).
Thanks,
Al
Alfred Trower
Consultant, Client/Server Systems
Supply Chain Specialist
- ----------------------------------
"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to
those who cannot fly." Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
From: davidbarnett@aristotle.net (David N. Barnett)
Subject: Re: Eico ST 70 and tone controls in general.
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 23:01:03 GMT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n184
On Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:01:04 -0700, "Lynn T. Olson"
<lynno@teleport.com> wrote:
>Do it right, and there might even be an interesting secondary market for
>the studio-recording prosound crowd ... an interesting addition to their
>sonic pallette they can't get on their 64-channel mixer.
Why do you think ancient Pultek tube EQs are so popular w/studios?
- --dnb
=========================================================================
From: ecoleman@whidbey.net (Ed Coleman)
Subject: Eico St-70 For sale
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:13:08 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n187
Hey Joes, I have an Eico St-70 for sale ,it is missing 2 knobs and the 7591
output tubes,I'll take offers/trades? please e-mail privately,TIA Ed
Ed Coleman,M.ED.University of Washington.Transition Coordinator,Oak Harbor
School District,Oak Harbor Wa.USA.
Supporter of Habitat of Humanity and ZPG.Orbiting in the universe of Marci
O.T.R.,shining in the light of the dual sons Evan and Brendan Ameluxen
Coleman
Slugs crawling up the window,winter in the northwest!
=========================================================================
From: "Markowitz, Gary" <MarkowitzG@nabisco.com>
Subject: Eico ST70 Info Needed
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:55:54 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n066
Hi all,
I picked up a mint condition Eico ST70 at a garage sale on Sunday,
complete with owners manual. :-). I remember some Eico stuff being
discussed on the list before, but don't have any of the old posts.
Anyone have any info on this unit? I'd appreciate any input you might
have.
The unit is quite interesting. The power and output trannies are quite
sizeable, the output tubes are 7591's, and it has a center channel
speaker output. It seems to have a lot of cool features in the preamp
section, including a null output test for channel balance.
The unit seems to work well, other than the fact the output tubes are in
quite poor condition. Solid state rectifier diodes were soldered into
an old tube socket and used in place of the GZ34 (which may have
contributed to the tubes early demise).
I've got some 7868's laying around, and I've heard they are pretty much
exact equivilents of the 7591's with different bases. I've got some
extra sockets for them lying around. I'd like to know if all I need to
do is swap the sockets to swich to the 7868's, or do I need to change
the operating points of the tubes?
TIA, any help would be greatly appreciated.
Gary Markowitz
MarkowitzG@nabisco.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----------------------------
"Into the keyboard, thru the processor, off the NIC, past the gateway,
nothing but Net"
=========================================================================
From: "David B. Klein" <dklein@microtec.net>
Subject: Re: Eico Tube Tester
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 15:45:24
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n550
Guys and gals, I'll be going to fetch some of my tube stuff from my
parents' attic in Ontario over the holidays. There's an Eico tube tester
there collecting dust. Is anyone looking for such a beastie?
Season's Greetings,
David Klein
=========================================================================
From: RALPH POWER <POWER.RALPH@epamail.epa.gov>
Subject: Eifl export's email address
Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 18:03:24 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n245
Hi All,
Does anyone have a current address fro Koji at Eifl Export ?
The one on the website doesn't work.
Thanks for bandwidth,
- Ralph
=========================================================================
From: Guido Tent <gtent@ehv.sc.philips.com>
Subject: EL156 for sale
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 09:13:17 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n008
Hi
For sale:
1 piece brand new EL156, Telefunken original
Please respond privately
Guido
" 640K ought to be enough for anybody" , Bill Gates, 1981
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed herin are my personal ones and do not in
any way reflect opinions or policies of my employer.
Guido Tent
Engineer Electro Magnetic Compatibility
Philips Semiconductors Systems Laboratory Eindhoven (PS-SLE)
Building BE303, (Hurksestraat 19)
P.O.Box 218, 5600MD Eindhoven, The Netherlands
Phone: +31-40-27 24553
fax : +31-40-27 22764
- - Let's make things better ! -
E-mail: guido.tent@ehv. sc.philips.com
Seri : gtent@nlsce1
=========================================================================
From: "Dan Hon" <danielh@conc.tds.net>
Subject: EL34 Choice?
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 21:10:27 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n366
Svetlana EL34, Sovtek EL34WXT, Tesla/JJ-Slovakia EL34L, EL- Yugoslavia, all
these manufacturers are offering EL34's at almost the same price-point. And
me, I'm woefully ignorant of how these tubes stack up against one another.
I realize this is a highly subjective and speculative call but, would
someone with EL34 experience please reply privately.
They are for an amp that uses a Sutherland Engineering mosfet output driver
board. (Yes, it's a Hybrid 70.) The application is for a midrange and
treble amp to be used with Superwhammodynes.
Thanks,
Daniel Hon
danielh@conc.tds.net
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: EL34 Choice?
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 18:43:48 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n368
I would still go for "euro" version EL34 of Golden Dragon
Guido
At 21:10 29-7-98 -0400, Dan Hon wrote:
>Svetlana EL34, Sovtek EL34WXT, Tesla/JJ-Slovakia EL34L, EL- Yugoslavia, all
>these manufacturers are offering EL34's at almost the same price-point. And
>me, I'm woefully ignorant of how these tubes stack up against one another.
>I realize this is a highly subjective and speculative call but, would
>someone with EL34 experience please reply privately.
>
>They are for an amp that uses a Sutherland Engineering mosfet output driver
>board. (Yes, it's a Hybrid 70.) The application is for a midrange and
>treble amp to be used with Superwhammodynes.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Daniel Hon
>danielh@conc.tds.net
>
>
=========================================================================
From: Robert Ang <rang@tartarus.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: EL34 Design
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:31:09 +0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n111
Sorry, Joes!
Just a couple more points - I hate feedback, but the original design uses
and and I assume I wouldn't get decent frequency response without it... but
I would still prefer a non-feedback design.
Another point is that there is unfortunately no room to put an interstage
transformer in its existing chassis.
Rob.
=========================================================================
From: Edgar Faulkner <efaulkne@wsunix.wsu.edu>
Subject: Re: EL34 Design
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:40:02 -0800 (PST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n112
My first tube amp was a PP EL34 design. My first mod was triode wiring.
The second mod, which made the greatest improvement in sound, was cutting
the feedback loop! Two seconds to to this and I was sold on non feedback
amps.
On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Robert Ang wrote:
> Sorry, Joes!
>
> Just a couple more points - I hate feedback, but the original design uses
> and and I assume I wouldn't get decent frequency response without it... but
> I would still prefer a non-feedback design.
> Another point is that there is unfortunately no room to put an interstage
> transformer in its existing chassis.
>
> Rob.
>
>
>
=========================================================================
From: Dave Stagner <dstagner@icarus.net>
Subject: Re: EL34 Design
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 11:19:23 -0600 (CST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n112
On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Edgar Faulkner wrote:
> My first tube amp was a PP EL34 design. My first mod was triode wiring.
> The second mod, which made the greatest improvement in sound, was cutting
> the feedback loop! Two seconds to to this and I was sold on non feedback
> amps.
That's about what it took for me, too. I remember I was listening to "Are
You Experienced?", one of my favorite records, and one I *thought* I knew
intimately...
> > Just a couple more points - I hate feedback, but the original design uses
> > and and I assume I wouldn't get decent frequency response without it... but
> > I would still prefer a non-feedback design.
If no feedback hurts the frequency response, then frequency response is
the wrong measurement. Do we design for ears, or oscilloscopes?
- -dave
By "beauty," I mean that which seems complete.
Obversely, that the incomplete, or the mutilated, is the ugly.
Venus De Milo.
To a child she is ugly. /* dstagner@icarus.net */
-Charles Fort
=========================================================================
From: Guido Tent <gtent@ehv.sc.philips.com>
Subject: Re: EL34 Design
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 09:19:45 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n113
At 08:40 17-11-97 -0800, Edgar Faulkner wrote:
>My first tube amp was a PP EL34 design. My first mod was triode wiring.
>The second mod, which made the greatest improvement in sound, was cutting
>the feedback loop! Two seconds to to this and I was sold on non feedback
>amps.
And (if not yet the case) go for pure class A, cathode bias (470 ohm with
100 uF each tube, with appr. 375 V on anodes) and use only a paraphase
splitter with one ECC83/12AX7. Gives you the simples circuit with 400 mV sens.
Guido
>On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Robert Ang wrote:
>
>> Sorry, Joes!
>>
>> Just a couple more points - I hate feedback, but the original design uses
>> and and I assume I wouldn't get decent frequency response without it... but
>> I would still prefer a non-feedback design.
>> Another point is that there is unfortunately no room to put an interstage
>> transformer in its existing chassis.
>>
>> Rob.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
=========================================================================
From: Joe Pledger <doodle@navicom.com>
Subject: EL34 in triode mode
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 00:18:20 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n552
Hi All,
I'm going to use a Svetlana EL84/6CA7 in triode mode to drive an IT.
Looked through all my collection of Joenet hard copies, without luck.
Would appreciate and advice on triode wiring it, i.e., which grid ties
to ?, and are resistances needed between any of the pins?
TIA
Joe Pledger
=========================================================================
From: "T. Loesch" <ezee_e@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: EL34 in triode mode
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 04:19:04 PST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n552
Yo Joe,
>Would appreciate and advice on triode wiring it, i.e., which
>grid ties to ?,
All Grids but the controll Grid go to the Anode (Screen Grid and
Suppressor Grid)...
>and are resistances needed between any of the pins?
As a general pint, yes... On EL-34's it is common to use 100R on the
Screen-Grid and 1k on the surpressor Grid....
As the EL-84 has it's supressor grid permanently connected to the
Cathode (according to my data-books at least) simply connect pin 9
(screen grid) via a 100 Ohm Resistor to pin 7 (Anode).....
Kind regards Thorsten.
======================================
e-mail:
Thorsten@tnt-audio.com
Visit TNT-Audio on the Web - the only advertising
free audio web-zine.
http://www.tnt-audio.com
======================================
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
From: Joe Pledger <doodle@navicom.com>
Subject: Re: EL34 in triode mode question.
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 18:45:26 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n553
Hi Thorsten,Dave and Ed,
Thanks for the reply, Guys! I did some more hole cutting on the chassis
plate this afternoon. Looking OK so far...I'll put your suggestions to
good use.
Happy New Year!
Joe Pledger
=========================================================================
From: Richard C Nevill <rnevill@is.dal.ca>
Subject: EL-34 Suggestions
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 23:03:36 -0400 (AST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n097
Hi Joes,
If ya'll remember I asked for suggestions using a pair of EL-34's as
output tubes in something simple for a first timer to build. I received
numerous replys (Thanks everyone!). One suggestion was the Eico HF-87,
which has possibilities but I need some 6SN7's for this (Rick Francis, are
you reading this ;-) ). Another was Daniel Normolle' circuit, which I
haven't seen yet.
This leads up to a circuit that Marvin has suggested that uses tubes I
have on hand. It is, and I'm quoting;
6AB4's as the input/gain stages,
one for each channel, and one 6CG7 as a phase splitter, 1/2 per channel,
or one 6CG7 per channel, configured as a phase inverter. A pair of 6AX4's
used as power rectifiers, EL-34's in th output, and we're home free!
I realize that youse guys don't have a copy of my tube list to come up
with something different, but the question, is any comments on this
circuit?
Thanks Marvin for your input,
and I welcome any comments from Joes
Cheers
Richard Nevill
=========================================================================
From: Jonathan Morrison <ppdiva@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: EL-34 Suggestions
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 10:01:15 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n098
At 11:03 PM 10/31/97 -0400, you wrote:
One suggestion was the Eico HF-87,
>which has possibilities but I need some 6SN7's for this (Rick Francis, are
>you reading this ;-) ).
I picked up an HF-87 and used it for a while about 5 years ago, but I was
never happy with its sound. Mine sounded grey and low-res with little power
in the bass and not much highs. At the same tome I was using an HF-85 pre
which sounded really good (I think that it is the best pre from the 50's,
60's, and 70's- certainly the best that I heard), so I was expecting great
things from the amp and was disappointed. I don't know why it sounded so
dull. Several people have said that autobias isn't a good choice with EL34s.
Mine is still in storage, so sometime I'll have to pull it out and play
with it.
Regarding the HF85, someone has a schematic on their website (don't
remember who) and that schematic looks nothing like mine did. In mine, the
first 12AX7 section in the phono ran without feedback, and the EQ networks
ran from the plate of the second section back to its own grid.
JDM
=========================================================================
From: Grover Gardner <groverg@bellatlantic.net>
Subject: Re: EL-34 Suggestions
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:57:36 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n100
At 10:01 AM -0800 11/3/97, Jonathan Morrison wrote:
>At 11:03 PM 10/31/97 -0400, you wrote:
> One suggestion was the Eico HF-87,
>>which has possibilities but I need some 6SN7's for this (Rick Francis, are
>>you reading this ;-) ).
>
>I picked up an HF-87 and used it for a while about 5 years ago, but I was
>never happy with its sound. Mine sounded grey and low-res with little power
>in the bass and not much highs. At the same tome I was using an HF-85 pre
>which sounded really good (I think that it is the best pre from the 50's,
>60's, and 70's- certainly the best that I heard), so I was expecting great
>things from the amp and was disappointed. I don't know why it sounded so
>dull. Several people have said that autobias isn't a good choice with EL34s.
>Mine is still in storage, so sometime I'll have to pull it out and play
>with it.
Really, now? Mine was one of the best little amps I've ever heard in that
range. Much better than a Dyna IMHO. Perhaps yours had a tired PS or
tubes...? I think they're worth fixing up.
Grover Gardner
groverg@bellatlantic.net
=========================================================================
From: Jonathan Morrison <ppdiva@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: EL-34 Suggestions
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 00:01:41 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n100
At 06:57 PM 11/3/97 -0600, you wrote:
>
>Really, now? Mine was one of the best little amps I've ever heard in that
>range. Much better than a Dyna IMHO. Perhaps yours had a tired PS or
>tubes...? I think they're worth fixing up.
>
>Grover Gardner
>groverg@bellatlantic.net
>
I really wonder about sample variation in Eico stuff- I read for instance
that some HF-87s had an unused bias tap on the power transformer, and
others didn't. Maybe the OPTs varied as well. I didn't do anything to mine
except replace the filters which blew up when I first plugged it in so I
don't know what potential it has. But next to the SA300 it vanished.
JDM
=========================================================================
From: Grover Gardner <groverg@bellatlantic.net>
Subject: Re: EL-34 Suggestions
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:01:22 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n101
At 12:01 AM -0800 11/5/97, Jonathan Morrison wrote:
>At 06:57 PM 11/3/97 -0600, you wrote:
>
>>
>>Really, now? Mine was one of the best little amps I've ever heard in that
>>range. Much better than a Dyna IMHO. Perhaps yours had a tired PS or
>>tubes...? I think they're worth fixing up.
>>
>>Grover Gardner
>>groverg@bellatlantic.net
>>
>I really wonder about sample variation in Eico stuff- I read for instance
>that some HF-87s had an unused bias tap on the power transformer, and
>others didn't. Maybe the OPTs varied as well. I didn't do anything to mine
>except replace the filters which blew up when I first plugged it in so I
>don't know what potential it has. But next to the SA300 it vanished.
>JDM
The SA300 being...which amp? Yes, mine has the clipped bias leads in the
PT. The OPTs are beautiful--I've used them in many experiments. I paid
$199 for mine before they got trendy. It was the first cathode-bias EL34
amp I'd heard and the warmth and simplicity of presentation were a real joy
after tired Dynacos and Fisher amps. I think they can be upgraded into a
really swell amp--there's lots of room underneath for tweaks. BTW--where
are you located?
Grover Gardner
groverg@bellatlantic.net
=========================================================================
From: dslagle@earthlink.net (dave slagle)
Subject: el-34 triode Q
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:22:36 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n253
hey,
was looking again at the ST-70 schematic, and why when you triode the tube
do you not also conect pin 1 to the plate??? isn't it there to catch
"bouncing electrons" from the screen grid... but if triode wired, you
essentially have...oh i dunno?? whats going on here???
the way i understand it...
the grid pulls the electrons from the cathode
the control grid pulls them more (hence the pentode gain)
the supressor grid collects the ones that bounce off the plate (cuz they
hit and were going too fast so they bounced off) and return them to the
catode (for another try at it)
if yo triode wire, you no longer need the supressor grid due to the lower
"force" so why not wire that to the plate too???
confused
dave
=========================================================================
From: Ron Steinberg <ca789@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
Subject: Re: el-34 triode Q
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 07:25:43 -0400 (EDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n253
Hi Dave, I ain't no tube expert, but I do know that the grid doesn't pull
the electrons from the cathode, it actually repels them, in varying
amounts, depending on the signal. That's how we get amplification.
Ron
On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, dave slagle wrote:
> hey,
>
> was looking again at the ST-70 schematic, and why when you triode the tube
> do you not also conect pin 1 to the plate??? isn't it there to catch
> "bouncing electrons" from the screen grid... but if triode wired, you
> essentially have...oh i dunno?? whats going on here???
>
> the way i understand it...
>
> the grid pulls the electrons from the cathode
>
> the control grid pulls them more (hence the pentode gain)
> the supressor grid collects the ones that bounce off the plate (cuz they
> hit and were going too fast so they bounced off) and return them to the
> catode (for another try at it)
>
> if yo triode wire, you no longer need the supressor grid due to the lower
> "force" so why not wire that to the plate too???
>
> confused
>
> dave
>
>
>
======================================================================
Ron Steinberg Photographer <ca789@torfree.net>
Though self employed, my opinions do not reflect those of my employer.
======================================================================
=========================================================================
From: "Daniel J. Marshall" <danmarshall@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: el-34 triode Q
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:53:55 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n253
dave slagle wrote:
>
> hey,
>
> was looking again at the ST-70 schematic, and why when you triode the tube
> do you not also conect pin 1 to the plate??? isn't it there to catch
> "bouncing electrons" from the screen grid... but if triode wired, you
> essentially have...oh i dunno?? whats going on here???
>
> the way i understand it...
>
> the grid pulls the electrons from the cathode
>
> the control grid pulls them more (hence the pentode gain)
> the supressor grid collects the ones that bounce off the plate (cuz they
> hit and were going too fast so they bounced off) and return them to the
> catode (for another try at it)
>
> if yo triode wire, you no longer need the supressor grid due to the lower
> "force" so why not wire that to the plate too???
>
> confused
>
> dave
Hi Dave,
Recalling back from a very long time ago, I seem to remember that the
supressor grid acts more to repel the electrons back to the plate than
to collect them and return to the cathode. The suppressor grid is
positioned behind the screen in such a manner that by the time the
electrons get to it they have already been accellerated to a
sufficiently high velocity that they largely ignore the suppressor grid
and continue on to the plate. The stray electrons that bounce off the
plate are moving at a sufficiently low velocity that the suppressor grid
(being at a low potential) acts to repel them back to the plate more
than to collect them and return them to the cathode. Otherwise, it
would seem that you would have a kink in the plate characterisitc
similar to a tetrode where secondary emission is collected by the screen
and returned to the PS. Beam power tubes focus the electrons in a more
concentrated beam and the negative charge of the oncoming electron beam
acts to repel the secondary emitted electrons back to the plate.
Anyway, this is how I remember it from a very long time ago.
Dan Marshall
=========================================================================
From: Joseph Lowe <jlowe@cdc.net>
Subject: Re: el-34 triode Q
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 09:11:13 -0400 (EDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n253
On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, dave slagle wrote:
> if yo triode wire, you no longer need the supressor grid due to the lower
> "force" so why not wire that to the plate too???
You can do it either way. The only difference is the distortion spectrum
will be different depending on which way you connect it. Try it both ways
and see which way you like it best.
=========================================================================
From: dslagle@earthlink.net (Dave Slagle)
Subject: Re: el-34 triode Q
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 20:14:11 -0700 (PDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n255
>Recalling back from a very long time ago, I seem to remember that the
>supressor grid acts more to repel the electrons back to the plate than
>to collect them and return to the cathode. The suppressor grid is
>positioned behind the screen in such a manner that by the time the
>electrons get to it they have already been accellerated to a
>sufficiently high velocity that they largely ignore the suppressor grid
>and continue on toward the plate. The stray electrons that bounce off
>the plate are moving at a sufficiently low velocity that the suppressor
>grid (being at a low potential) acts to repel them back to the plate
>more than to collect them and return them to the cathode. Otherwise, it
>would seem that you would have a kink in the plate characterisitc
>similar to a tetrode where secondary emission is collected by the
>screen and returned to the PS. Beam power tubes focus the electrons in
>a more concentrated beam and the negative charge of the oncoming
>electron beam acts to repel the secondary emitted electrons back to the
>plate. Anyway, this is how I remember it from a very long time ago.
dan, etal
left that up top cuz its a good simple easy to understand pentode... we all
learn something from reading an interpretation reguardless of our level...
i'm just trying to get enough energy to rewire my ST-70 it will be simple,
but if it is a you say, is the supressor grid capable of any emission??? i
guess its a trivial point, since i ws looking at a drawing, and that
supressor grid dotted line was pretty big :-) it has to get in the way...
i guess its just clip, and and then a connect to the plate.... should a
resistor be used??? .... i know i know try it each way and let my ears
decide, but a little foresight makes all the hindsight more worthwhile...
dave
=========================================================================
From: "Daniel J. Marshall" <danmarshall@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: el-34 triode Q
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 21:13:38 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n255
Dave Slagle wrote:
>
> >Recalling back from a very long time ago, I seem to remember that the
> >supressor grid acts more to repel the electrons back to the plate than
> >to collect them and return to the cathode. The suppressor grid is
> >positioned behind the screen in such a manner that by the time the
> >electrons get to it they have already been accellerated to a
> >sufficiently high velocity that they largely ignore the suppressor grid
> >and continue on toward the plate. The stray electrons that bounce off
> >the plate are moving at a sufficiently low velocity that the suppressor
> >grid (being at a low potential) acts to repel them back to the plate
> >more than to collect them and return them to the cathode. Otherwise, it
> >would seem that you would have a kink in the plate characterisitc
> >similar to a tetrode where secondary emission is collected by the
> >screen and returned to the PS. Beam power tubes focus the electrons in
> >a more concentrated beam and the negative charge of the oncoming
> >electron beam acts to repel the secondary emitted electrons back to the
> >plate. Anyway, this is how I remember it from a very long time ago.
>
> dan, etal
>
> left that up top cuz its a good simple easy to understand pentode... we all
> learn something from reading an interpretation reguardless of our level...
>
> i'm just trying to get enough energy to rewire my ST-70 it will be simple,
> but if it is a you say, is the supressor grid capable of any emission??? i
> guess its a trivial point, since i ws looking at a drawing, and that
> supressor grid dotted line was pretty big :-) it has to get in the way...
>
> i guess its just clip, and and then a connect to the plate.... should a
> resistor be used??? .... i know i know try it each way and let my ears
> decide, but a little foresight makes all the hindsight more worthwhile...
>
> dave
Hi Dave,
Quite frankly, I have never done any experimentation along the line of
comparing the two suppressor connections. I have thought about it and
sort of put it on my mental to-do list. It may be that there is no hard
and fast rule, as the results may be different for different tubes. It
would seem as though it would be easier on the screen if the suppressor
is returned to the cathode, as the secondary emitted electrons would be
repeled toward the plate, thus perhaps lowering the screen current.
This is mainly thinking out loud at the moment. Perhaps tubes which are
run at higher screen voltages than they were originally intended to be
operated, would benefit most from the supprssor grid being returned to
the cathode, to help minimize the screen current. So, this is one thing
I would pay attention to when comparing the two connections, maybe put
a current meter in series with one of the grids and keep an eye on it
when making other comparisons.
Dan Marshall
=========================================================================
From: jc morrison <jcm@eclipse.net>
Subject: Re: el-34 triode Q
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 23:07:28 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n255
when triode wiring an EL-34, the suppressor can be left connected to
ground if you are using a highish B+. depending on who made your tubes,
the screens can ignite at 400v and above 50ma if the suppressor is also
connected to the plate. secondary emission... all modern el-34s and lots
of older ones (telefunken notably) do this. mullards are the toughest
apparently. you can put a bigger dropping resistor, but the pentode
effect creeps in somewhat. much better is to leave the suppressor
connected to ground and use a 50 to 500 ohm resistor to tie the screen
to the plate. this protects the screen in triode mode. el-34's are great
triode wired!
jc
=========================================================================
From: paolo.delgiusto@studioidea.it (Paolo Del Giusto)
Subject: EL34 valve amplifier
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:56:49 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n079
Hello people,
I'd like to build a power amplifier using the EL34 and I'm thinking about
using 4 of them per channel to obtain more power. Any suggestion? There is
on the net a circuit about that? You think there is another way to reach
that power using another kind of valve (of decent price....)?
Thanks in advance
- ----------------------------------------------------------
- ----------------Paolo Del Giusto--------------------------
- ----------------------------------------------------------
- ----------paolo.delgiusto@studioidea.it-------------------
- ----------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
From: Torsten.Loesch@FinanceManager.Finance.FinanceAndInformation.enhar-ha.nthames.nhs.uk
Subject: Re: EL34 valve amplifier
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:04:02 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n082
Hi Folks,
> I'd like to build a power amplifier using the EL34 and I'm thinking about
> using 4 of them per channel to obtain more power. Any suggestion? There is
> on the net a circuit about that? You think there is another way to reach
> that power using another kind of valve (of decent price....)?
Well, I leave alternative suggestions to others, but for about $ 1100.00
you should be able to buy the Vellman Kit. Now that they have junked the
awfull Tesla EL's they used to Supply in favour of a Quartett of Sovteks
per Channel and supply decent stuff (Sovtek/NOS JAN) for the other Valves
that should do nicely. Model# K4000/K4040
I may even build one myself.
There is more detail on Vellemans Website:
http://www.velleman.be/
The Circuit is simplicity itself, 12AU7 (use 12AY instead) Preamp into the
Classic Dynaco ST-70 Style Circuit, using the 12AX7 - one Voltage Amp into
Concertina Phase-splitter into 4 X fixed Bias ultralinear EL34's.
In most of these Units (as indeed all WOT Tubeamps) the Iron quality is the
Key to performance.
Later
=========================================================================
From: Tim Reese <reese@nmr.MGH.harvard.EDU>
Subject: Re: EL84/7189
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 15:59:48 -0500 (EST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n179
Sovtek EL84M is also billed as a 7189, but I'd have to check the specs
to see if it is 400V rated. Angela is offering GE 7189s currently at $12
ea (pretty good price for NOS). cheers tr
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Reese, MGH NMR Center reese@nmr.MGH.harvard.edu
Old Engineering Proverb : never calculate what you can measure.
=========================================================================
From: "Mark Donen" <soledadd@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: EL84
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 08:06:13 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n147
Has anyone had any experience with triode connected EL 84s? I had Leak
TL12+s a few years ago (stock with new caps) and it sounded really quite
good to me? Am I right in thinking this was due to the EL84s? Couldn't have
been the circuit or the iron, at least that seemed nothing special.
TIA
Mark
=========================================================================
From: "Mark Donen" <soledadd@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: el84
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:06:49 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n181
Hi all,
Thanks for all the responses on the el84 subject. Now since there seems to
be some experience with this tube, what does anyone think of it. It is
worth building a high quality amp around -- I remember Lynn O. said it
comes as closer than any other pentode to triode performance. It seems
cheap enough to be worth looking into. Triode connected, zero negative
feedback, pp ??
TIA
Mark
=========================================================================
From: "Lynn T. Olson" <lynno@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: el84
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 20:10:21 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n181
>Thanks for all the responses on the el84 subject. Now since there seems to
>be some experience with this tube, what does anyone think of it. It is
>worth building a high quality amp around -- I remember Lynn O. said it
>comes as closer than any other pentode to triode performance. It seems
>cheap enough to be worth looking into. Triode connected, zero negative
>feedback, pp ??
>
>TIA
>
>Mark
Now that would be lotsa fun. One of the charms of the EL84 is that it needs
so little drive compared to just about anything else, even other pentodes,
not to mention any DHT. This makes SE driver -> IT trans -> PP EL84 simple
to do, since the driver doesn't have to swing very far. The SE driver
solution is much less attractive for PP DHT's, since you end up with more
distortion from the driver than the output tubes due the excessive swing
required (unless you use a 1:2 stepup, which has it's own set of problems).
So ... one 6J5 (or half of a 6SN7), one 1:1 interstage, a PP pair of
cathode-biased EL84's running in Class A. What could be simpler? Use a 8K
to 12K PP OPT, zero feedback, and there you are. Set the individual EL84
currents just a bit higher than the recommended SE value, make sure the OPT
primary is a nice high Z, and you have deep Class A operation. Play around
with pentode, ultra-linear, triode connection, "enhanced triode mode"
drive, whatever turned you on. Put it in a rusty beat-up old EICO chassis,
shock your friends with audiophile SE amps, and get thrown out of snooty
high-end stores.
Lynn T. Olson
E-mail: lynno@teleport.com
Web: http://www.teleport.com/~lynno/Ariel.htm
Editor, Valve & Tube News
=========================================================================
From: "dehls" <dehls@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: el84
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 23:08:56 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n181
I have a small SE integrated that uses EL84's and sounds
absolutely great on Stax SRX MK3's. Hmmmmm, I wonder
what it would sound like on the Klipsch CF4's (102db) I just
got to fool around with?
Darn day job sure gets in the way ;^)
David
- ----------
> From: Mark Donen <soledadd@worldnet.att.net>
> To: joelist <sound@deliverator.io.com>
> Subject: el84
> Date: Tuesday, February 03, 1998 4:06 PM
>
> Hi all,
>
> Thanks for all the responses on the el84 subject. Now since there
seems to
> be some experience with this tube, what does anyone think of it. It
is
> worth building a high quality amp around -- I remember Lynn O. said
it
> comes as closer than any other pentode to triode performance. It
seems
> cheap enough to be worth looking into. Triode connected, zero
negative
> feedback, pp ??
>
> TIA
>
> Mark
=========================================================================
From: Joe Pledger <doodle@navicom.com>
Subject: Re: el84
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 16:18:53 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n182
evaguido wrote:
>
-snip-
>
> Hey, be careful, the serious high end people might become angry :-)
Serious high-end people get angry if you trip over one of their ebony
blocks of wood on the floor in front of their speakers!
Joe pledger
-snip-
> Guido
>
> >Lynn T. Olson
> >E-mail: lynno@teleport.com
> >Web: http://www.teleport.com/~lynno/Ariel.htm
> >Editor, Valve & Tube News
> >
> >
> >
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: el84
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 21:36:31 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n182
At 19:06 3-2-98 -0500, Mark Donen wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>Thanks for all the responses on the el84 subject. Now since there seems to
>be some experience with this tube, what does anyone think of it. It is
>worth building a high quality amp around -- I remember Lynn O. said it
>comes as closer than any other pentode to triode performance. It seems
>cheap enough to be worth looking into. Triode connected, zero negative
>feedback, pp ??
Yes, and with a transformer as phase splitter (or not, Lynn ?)
I have three sets of Philips DIY (type HF309) from early 60s. they are EL84
PPs, had lousy (cathodyne) phase splitters, but oh my god, the outputs
(C-cores), Never saw, heard or measured better then those
Peter van Willenswaard and I have studied those amps, and modified them
according to our knowledge
Peter wrote an article about that in Dutch Audio & Techniek magazine.
Still like these amps, allthough I am into 2A3 PP and 300 b SE now
Guido
>TIA
>
>Mark
>
>
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: el84
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 21:36:39 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n182
>shock your friends with audiophile SE amps, and get thrown out of snooty
>high-end stores.
Hey, be careful, the serious high end people might become angry :-)
Guido
>Lynn T. Olson
>E-mail: lynno@teleport.com
>Web: http://www.teleport.com/~lynno/Ariel.htm
>Editor, Valve & Tube News
>
>
>
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: el84
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 21:36:40 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n182
At 23:08 3-2-98 -0800, dehls wrote:
>I have a small SE integrated that uses EL84's and sounds
>absolutely great on Stax SRX MK3's. Hmmmmm, I wonder
>what it would sound like on the Klipsch CF4's (102db) I just
>got to fool around with?
I have SE EL84 too ! Using small C-core trannies (Philips) make my day with
2 W triode connected !
Use half ECC83 to drive it. Works fine with my Audio Note model 1 speaker,
no not so loud
Guido
>Darn day job sure gets in the way ;^)
>
>David
>
>----------
>> From: Mark Donen <soledadd@worldnet.att.net>
>> To: joelist <sound@deliverator.io.com>
>> Subject: el84
>> Date: Tuesday, February 03, 1998 4:06 PM
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Thanks for all the responses on the el84 subject. Now since there
>seems to
>> be some experience with this tube, what does anyone think of it. It
>is
>> worth building a high quality amp around -- I remember Lynn O. said
>it
>> comes as closer than any other pentode to triode performance. It
>seems
>> cheap enough to be worth looking into. Triode connected, zero
>negative
>> feedback, pp ??
>>
>> TIA
>>
>> Mark
>
>
=========================================================================
From: pitaro@ozemail.com.au
Subject: Re: el84
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 00:29:11 EST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n183
** Reply to note from Joe Pledger <doodle@navicom.com> Wed, 04 Feb 1998 16:18:53 -0800
> >
> > Hey, be careful, the serious high end people might become angry :-)
>
> Serious high-end people get angry if you trip over one of their ebony
> blocks of wood on the floor in front of their speakers!
In front of their speakers? I thought they were supposed to put those
blocks on top of their speakers! :) What about all the metalic dots they
stick on their speakers?
But seriously, a little triode connected, zero feedback, push pull EL84
amp, is the best PP amp I've ever heard. I've got a pair of quality output
trannies, built about 30 years agao, waiting to be assembled.
Regards,
Harry Pitaro
+-----------------------+---------------------------------------------+
| Melbourne, Australia | A good discussion is like a miniskirt; |
| | Short enough to retain interest |
| pitaro@ozemail.com.au | and long enough to cover the subject. |
+-----------------------+---------------------------------------------+
=========================================================================
From: Grover Gardner <groverg@bellatlantic.net>
Subject: EL84
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:41:11 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n188
So, I've been hearing a lot about the EL84 lately, what with this Verdier
amp described in SP, and having just heard Gordon's lovely little Junior at
a friend's place--also Tom Ronan kinda flipped over a little Fisher amp a
while back, and John Levrault's been talking pentodes again, so I thought I
just gotta try it.
Not having worked with pentodes (about as much as with transistors ;-)) I
wanted to see something on paper to get some guidelines, and sure enough
there in the little GE amp design book is a Class B triode amp, using
tranny-coupled, triode-wired KT66s as drivers, and some EL84s to drive them
in turn. Up front is a little balanced triode phase-splitter, so the EL84s
are providing all the gain for the KT66s. The B+ is 425, the plate
resistor is 47K/5W, the screen resistor is 470K and the shared cathode
resistor is 220. They are unbypassed. The text says "...the combined
anode and screen current of each [EL84] is 6mA, the anode and screen
potentials being 150 and 60, respectively. An input not exceeding 1+1 to
this stage gives and output of 80+80 at less than 2 percent distortion."
So I set this up in front of the VV32, except I adjusted the cathode
resistor for one tube and bypassed it.
The gain was enough to listen straight in from the CD for testing. It
sounded really nice and sweet, very smooth and with terrific depth, but a
little filmy, like a pentode, and a touch on the nasal side. So I
unbypassed the tube and what a change. Now it sounded like a really good
unbypassed triode, which I like. (Would this relate, BTW, to those graphs
Jean-Michel posted the other day?) Thinking perhaps I would need more
swing from the tube, I halved the plate and screen resistors. Now I get
about 190 volts on both plate and screen, with a bias voltage of 5.3 or so.
The plate current is about 11mA. I increased the screen bypass to a 4uF
cap I had handy.
Finally, I added a cap-coupled, unbypassed 12AU7 in front, running low, at
around 100 volts, looking for about 10 volts of gain. This worked out well
and it's pretty snazzy sounding, given the parts quality. Now, would
anyone care to tell me WHAT I'M DOING?? :-)
Here are my questions:
As a voltage amplifier, should the screen be running at a lower voltage
than the plate, as in a 6SJ7?
How much plate voltage do I need for the 160 volts swing I'm looking for?
What sort of plate load is best, given the 38K resistance of the EL84? How
is this determined?
Since this was originally intended to drive KT66s, can I expect reasonable
bandwidth given the higher input capacitance of the VV32? It sounds very
good, but I detect rolloff and will raise the grid resistor of the VV32 to
470K to see if this helps.
I will have to bone up on reading the curves for a pentode, but my RDH3
containes scant information on RC-coupled pentodes, and this relates mostly
to small tubes like the 6J7.
I'll keep searching for as much info as I can find, but any comments would
be appreciated! Thanks!
Grover Gardner
groverg@bellatlantic.net
=========================================================================
From: tronan@orion.it.luc.edu (Thomas Ronan)
Subject: Re: EL84
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:46:07 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n188
As Grover and I have been talking about the EL84, I have a few questions of
my own:
When Rc coupling with a pentode, how does one set the load resistor? With
a triode, a rule of thumb (which I greatly depart from most of the time) is
at least 2*Rp. With a voltage gain pentode, like a 6SJ7, the Rp is on the
order of 1Meg, but the Rl is more like 250K or so. With a power pentode,
specifically somethink like the EL84, the Rp is closer to 40K. How does
one figure a proper load for this tube?
As a side note (and to further exacerbate the obvious fact that I know
nothing about pentodes), an EL84 uses a 5k tranny to put out 6 watts in SE
mode. By analogy, a 45 uses the same tranny. If a 'typical' 5k tranny has
enough inductance for reasonably full lower-end bandwith, then enough
inductance for an 45 would be enough for an EL84. So a 50H 60mA choke
would be more than enough...?
Can anyone set me straight?
Thanks.,
Tom
- ------
Thomas Ronan tronan@orion.it.luc.edu
1045 W. Montana, Chicago, IL 60614 773.528.0882
Lowther Club of America, Chicago Representative
=========================================================================
From: Tommy Robinson <tommy_robinson@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: el 84 se
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 10:05:30 -0800 (PST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n477
http://www.decware.com/menu.htm
- ---Mark Donen <soledadd@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> there is a guy who is commerically building a reasonably priced se
rl 84
> amp. Does anyone have this URL. OR his name? Want to turn someone on
to
> the se thing.
>
> Thanks
>
> Mark
>
>
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
=========================================================================
From: Mark Donen <soledadd@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: el 84 se
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 10:55:12 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n477
Hi,
there is a guy who is commerically building a reasonably priced se rl 84
amp. Does anyone have this URL. OR his name? Want to turn someone on to
the se thing.
Thanks
Mark
=========================================================================
From: Paul Joppa <pdj@ISDNseattle.net>
Subject: Re: el 84 se
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 20:59:43 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n478
Try Antique Sound USA, ASUSA-Kit. They were demoing a new design at
VSAC. Advertise in Glass Audio; I don't see a web site but email is
franklab@ix.netcom.com phone 425-481-8866. I didn't get to hear it,
but it sure is a cute little bugger!
- -Paul Joppa
Mark Donen wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> there is a guy who is commerically building a reasonably priced se rl 84
> amp. Does anyone have this URL. OR his name? Want to turn someone on to
> the se thing.
>
> Thanks
>
> Mark
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: el 84 se
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 22:20:51 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n478
At 10:55 2-11-98 -0500, Mark Donen wrote:
>Hi,
>
>there is a guy who is commerically building a reasonably priced se rl 84
>amp. Does anyone have this URL. OR his name? Want to turn someone on to
>the se thing.
I know a Dutch magazine that in short future will publish a design with 2
parallel 84, that as SE output. Look at:
http://www.audio-nl.com.
Audio Note OTO however uses the same topology. Listen to it one day
Guido
>Thanks
>
>Mark
>
>
=========================================================================
From: Hartmut <Hartmut.Quaschik@mch.sni.de>
Subject: Re: el 84 se
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 10:31:27 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n481
evaguido wrote:
>
> At 10:55 2-11-98 -0500, Mark Donen wrote:
> >Hi,
> >
> >there is a guy who is commerically building a reasonably priced se rl 84
> >amp. Does anyone have this URL. OR his name? Want to turn someone on to
> >the se thing.
>
> I know a Dutch magazine that in short future will publish a design with 2
> parallel 84, that as SE output. Look at:
>
> http://www.audio-nl.com.
>
> Audio Note OTO however uses the same topology. Listen to it one day
I use three in parallel into an Audio Note 2k5 OPT xfr, sounds even
better than two (in fact I started with two), and now even use an
EL 84 as a driver.
regards,
Hartmut from Munich
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: el 84 se
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 22:30:09 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n484
At 10:31 5-11-98 +0100, Hartmut wrote:
>evaguido wrote:
>>
>> At 10:55 2-11-98 -0500, Mark Donen wrote:
>> >Hi,
>> >
>> >there is a guy who is commerically building a reasonably priced se rl 84
>> >amp. Does anyone have this URL. OR his name? Want to turn someone on to
>> >the se thing.
>>
>> I know a Dutch magazine that in short future will publish a design with 2
>> parallel 84, that as SE output. Look at:
>>
>> http://www.audio-nl.com.
>>
>> Audio Note OTO however uses the same topology. Listen to it one day
>
>I use three in parallel into an Audio Note 2k5 OPT xfr, sounds even
>better than two (in fact I started with two), and now even use an
>EL 84 as a driver.
With an interstage ?
Must be a thrilling amp !
Have fun
Guido
>regards,
>Hartmut from Munich
>
>
=========================================================================
From: Triodont <Triodont@aol.com>
Subject: el84 se: replicate an existing amp?
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 01:16:06 EST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n214
hi,
i recently borrowed an old integrated el84 se amp (brand name: eric - does
anybody know about them?) from a friend which reputedly gives off 3 watts only
(12ax7 preamp tube, 12ax7 predrivers, and 6ca4). it sounded really amazing
with my spica angelus and snell k and only starts to clip with the volume
control between 2 and 3 o'clock, loud enough for me. i normally listen to a
300B se amp, and this amp almost gives nothing to it, sounding less spotlit on
the mids, which i like, and really full-range. both the speakers have really
nice impedance curve, especially the angelus.
my question is: with my dismal knowledge as to reading a circuit, is it
possible for me to replicate this exact amp using better transformers and
parts (but same values), and maybe a different, more aesthetically pleasing
layout. i know i could buy the audio note p1, which uses parallel el84, but
the attraction to this amp project is that it is hard-wired and i could design
a nicer chassis (dreaming up a compact ongaku-style chassis), and be able to
build it cheap.
there maybe a better el84 se design out there, but like i said, i'm not a
cracker in reading schematics. this amp would be a live design sitting in
front of me.
so, is this idea totally crazy? will appreciate any input.
btw i haven't opened the amp yet but my friend said its really very simple
(simpler than an st-70, he said).
thanks in advance.
regards,
ramon
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: el84 se: replicate an existing amp?
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 14:18:39 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n214
Ramon,
What can I do but agree ?
I have an EL84 SE using C-core outputs from early sixties (Philips). These
ampd are wonderful, and yes, I use Audio Note K as well, and yes I have
300b SE as well, but this EL84 has something special; it makes music !
To answer your question:
My amp is half ECC83 + EL84. Uses EZ81 rectifier and circuit is
straightforward. Next step will be switching from catode bias to fixed bias.
It was one of the reasons for me to ask for a new, decent small output
trannie, in order to replicate such beauty
regards,
Guido
At 01:16 12-3-98 EST, Triodont wrote:
>hi,
>
>i recently borrowed an old integrated el84 se amp (brand name: eric - does
>anybody know about them?) from a friend which reputedly gives off 3 watts
only
>(12ax7 preamp tube, 12ax7 predrivers, and 6ca4). it sounded really amazing
>with my spica angelus and snell k and only starts to clip with the volume
>control between 2 and 3 o'clock, loud enough for me. i normally listen to a
>300B se amp, and this amp almost gives nothing to it, sounding less
spotlit on
>the mids, which i like, and really full-range. both the speakers have really
>nice impedance curve, especially the angelus.
>my question is: with my dismal knowledge as to reading a circuit, is it
>possible for me to replicate this exact amp using better transformers and
>parts (but same values), and maybe a different, more aesthetically pleasing
>layout. i know i could buy the audio note p1, which uses parallel el84, but
>the attraction to this amp project is that it is hard-wired and i could
design
>a nicer chassis (dreaming up a compact ongaku-style chassis), and be able to
>build it cheap.
>there maybe a better el84 se design out there, but like i said, i'm not a
>cracker in reading schematics. this amp would be a live design sitting in
>front of me.
>so, is this idea totally crazy? will appreciate any input.
>btw i haven't opened the amp yet but my friend said its really very simple
>(simpler than an st-70, he said).
>thanks in advance.
>
>regards,
>ramon
>
>
=========================================================================
From: Torsten.Loesch@enhar-ha.nthames.nhs.uk
Subject: Re: el84 se: replicate an existing amp?
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 15:06:45 +0000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n216
Yo 'dettes 'n dudes,
> i recently borrowed an old integrated el84 se amp
<snip snip>
> my question is: with my dismal knowledge as to reading a circuit, is it
> possible for me to replicate this exact amp using better transformers and
> parts (but same values), and maybe a different, more aesthetically pleasing
> layout.
Sure.
Steve Deckert from Decware sells such a beastie as assembled and as kit.
http://www.decware.com/zpage1.htm
Then there is the Junior from Gordon Rankin, who will likely not be unwilling
to share some details.
I will personally try to get the Decware Amp around for a review.
Later Thorsten
=========================================================================
From: RALPH POWER <POWER.RALPH@epamail.epa.gov>
Subject: el84 se: replicate an existing amp? -Reply
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 15:24:00 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n215
Hi Ramon,
I found a bunch of EL84 SE schematics and other schematics at :
http://www.infomaniak.ch/~bonavolt/el84.htm
HTH,
- Ralph
=========================================================================
From: Paul Joppa <pdj@ISDNseattle.net>
Subject: Re: EL84 transformer
Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 14:09:33 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n211
evaguido wrote:
> I am still missing a small but decent trannie for EL84 SE. Let us say 5 to
> 6 k-ohm on the primary, 4 and 8 ohm secondary. Power ? 5 watt will do !
> Suitable for 40 mA dc, either triode or penthode
At the high end, anything suitable for a 45 should work with an EL84.
MQ
makes the RS-50 for example.
At the cheap end, look in the guitar amp replacement market. I used
one of
these in my "spud" amp (one-tuber; a 417A). Here's some notes I made a
while
ago on it:
The "Champ amp" is a small (5-watt) guitar amplifier, usually with a
6V6 output tube and an 8-inch speaker of 4 or 8 ohms. This transformer
is sold as a replacement for burned-out units in these amps. I got
mine from Angela Instruments for $25; they claim it is a little
heavier duty than the usual replacement unit. It weighs 15 oz on my
kitchen scale; the lamination stack is 2.25" tall x 1.875: wide x
0.75" thick. It appears to be non-interleaved, secondary outside,
primary inside.
Turns ratio: 26.5
Primary: 235 ohm DC, ca. 15 H.
Secondary: 0.36 ohm
Leakage: ca. 0.07 H
Capacitance: ca. 34 pF
DC current: probably no more than 45 mA; that's the max for 6V6's
A 6V6 is typically rated for a 5k load. At that value the secondary
impedance would be about 7 ohms. You could expect 25Hz to 16kHz at
- -3dB with a zero-feedback triode output, with full power down to about
50Hz - not bad at all for the money! Resistive losses are 10% or about
0.4dB.
... note that in pentode mode, there won't be much damping unless you
use some
feedback, in which case one tube is not enough.
> Another one is a small (no dc) input trannie, let's say 1 to 5 or 10, to
> add upfront your first tube
The Antique nickel core 10k:90k fills the bill, though it has its
detractors.
- -Paul Joppa
=========================================================================
From: Hartmut <Hartmut.Quaschik@mch.sni.de>
Subject: EL84, was: Output Transformer, VV52s, and the new 2A3
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 10:10:50 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n306
Joe Pang wrote:
> Last Friday, we underwent a listening session with
> three 300Bs, one EL84, one EL 34 single end and one
> 0.5 watt 417A and the modified Fi 2A3. The panel
> agreed that the 2A3 scores in terms of transparency
> and delicacy.
Joe,
Having an EL84-3*EL84 single ended triode mode triple
parallel 4 watt amp with EL84 in input stage, too, I am
interested in how good was the EL84 in your listening
session.
I prefer mine to SunAudio 2A3 and 300B and Shindo Palmer
300B Cetron.
regards,
Hartmut from Munich
=========================================================================
From: Joe Pang <joe.pang@citicorp.com>
Subject: Re: EL84, was: Output Transformer, VV52s, and the new 2A3
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 17:51:46 +0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n306
Hartmut,
Nice to hear from you.
Perhaps it is not quite fair to compare the
EL84 with other amps in the same group.
The one we have is a truely DIY built up from
scraps. Total costs is about US$ 650. with no
choke, small electrolytic caps. and just
so so output transformer. Furthermore, it
is transistor rectified and in single end
ultra linear mode driven by two halves of 12AX7
(one-half for each channel).
We agreed that it is a definite best buy,
a must for space limited situation in bed
room for low level listening. Compared with
other triodes, the EL84 sounds a bit raw
and coarse due to the minimalism in its
configuration. I am sure a tube rectified,
choked version will make it a very attractive
alternative.
Best
JP
Hartmut wrote:
>
> Joe Pang wrote:
> > Last Friday, we underwent a listening session with
> > three 300Bs, one EL84, one EL 34 single end and one
> > 0.5 watt 417A and the modified Fi 2A3. The panel
> > agreed that the 2A3 scores in terms of transparency
> > and delicacy.
>
> Joe,
>
> Having an EL84-3*EL84 single ended triode mode triple
> parallel 4 watt amp with EL84 in input stage, too, I am
> interested in how good was the EL84 in your listening
> session.
> I prefer mine to SunAudio 2A3 and 300B and Shindo Palmer
> 300B Cetron.
>
> regards,
> Hartmut from Munich
=========================================================================
From: alfia mak <alfiamak@hkstar.com>
Subject: RE: EL84, was: Output Transformer, VV52s, and the new 2A3
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 19:02:55 +0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n306
Joe,
One correction to the cost, it should be HKD not USD. The EL84 was driven by a 12AX7 and a 12AT7 fro
m what I know.
Alfia
- -----Original Message-----
From: Joe Pang [SMTP:joe.pang@citicorp.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 1998 5:52 PM
To: Hartmut.Quaschik@mch.sni.de
Cc: joe.pang@citicorp.com; sound practice list
Subject: Re: EL84, was: Output Transformer, VV52s, and the new 2A3
Hartmut,
Nice to hear from you.
Perhaps it is not quite fair to compare the
EL84 with other amps in the same group.
The one we have is a truely DIY built up from
scraps. Total costs is about US$ 650. with no
choke, small electrolytic caps. and just
so so output transformer. Furthermore, it
is transistor rectified and in single end
ultra linear mode driven by two halves of 12AX7
(one-half for each channel).
We agreed that it is a definite best buy,
a must for space limited situation in bed
room for low level listening. Compared with
other triodes, the EL84 sounds a bit raw
and coarse due to the minimalism in its
configuration. I am sure a tube rectified,
choked version will make it a very attractive
alternative.
Best
JP
Hartmut wrote:
>
> Joe Pang wrote:
> > Last Friday, we underwent a listening session with
> > three 300Bs, one EL84, one EL 34 single end and one
> > 0.5 watt 417A and the modified Fi 2A3. The panel
> > agreed that the 2A3 scores in terms of transparency
> > and delicacy.
>
> Joe,
>
> Having an EL84-3*EL84 single ended triode mode triple
> parallel 4 watt amp with EL84 in input stage, too, I am
> interested in how good was the EL84 in your listening
> session.
> I prefer mine to SunAudio 2A3 and 300B and Shindo Palmer
> 300B Cetron.
>
> regards,
> Hartmut from Munich
=========================================================================
From: "Timothy Yung" <tyyung@hkstar.com>
Subject: Re: EL84, was: Output Transformer, VV52s, and the new 2A3
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 21:33:03 +0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n306
Joe/Alfia,
I think the EL84 SE DIY use a single12AT7 as driver. What we heard last Sat
was a 3-mica GEC A2900 made in the 50's. I understand 12AX7 can be used as
well.
Tim
- -----Original Message-----
From: alfia mak <alfiamak@hkstar.com>
To: 'joe.pang@citicorp.com' <joe.pang@citicorp.com>;
'Hartmut.Quaschik@mch.sni.de' <Hartmut.Quaschik@mch.sni.de>
Cc: 'sound practice list' <sound@deliverator.io.com>
Date: Tuesday, 9 June 1998 20:03
Subject: RE: EL84, was: Output Transformer, VV52s, and the new 2A3
>Joe,
>One correction to the cost, it should be HKD not USD. The EL84 was driven
by a 12AX7 and a 12AT7 from what I know.
>
>Alfia
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Joe Pang [SMTP:joe.pang@citicorp.com]
>Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 1998 5:52 PM
>To: Hartmut.Quaschik@mch.sni.de
>Cc: joe.pang@citicorp.com; sound practice list
>Subject: Re: EL84, was: Output Transformer, VV52s, and the new 2A3
>
>Hartmut,
>
>Nice to hear from you.
>Perhaps it is not quite fair to compare the
>EL84 with other amps in the same group.
>The one we have is a truely DIY built up from
>scraps. Total costs is about US$ 650. with no
>choke, small electrolytic caps. and just
>so so output transformer. Furthermore, it
>is transistor rectified and in single end
>ultra linear mode driven by two halves of 12AX7
>(one-half for each channel).
>
>We agreed that it is a definite best buy,
>a must for space limited situation in bed
>room for low level listening. Compared with
>other triodes, the EL84 sounds a bit raw
>and coarse due to the minimalism in its
>configuration. I am sure a tube rectified,
>choked version will make it a very attractive
>alternative.
>
>Best
>
>JP
>
>
>Hartmut wrote:
>>
>> Joe Pang wrote:
>> > Last Friday, we underwent a listening session with
>> > three 300Bs, one EL84, one EL 34 single end and one
>> > 0.5 watt 417A and the modified Fi 2A3. The panel
>> > agreed that the 2A3 scores in terms of transparency
>> > and delicacy.
>>
>> Joe,
>>
>> Having an EL84-3*EL84 single ended triode mode triple
>> parallel 4 watt amp with EL84 in input stage, too, I am
>> interested in how good was the EL84 in your listening
>> session.
>> I prefer mine to SunAudio 2A3 and 300B and Shindo Palmer
>> 300B Cetron.
>>
>> regards,
>> Hartmut from Munich
>
>From owner-sound@lists.io.com Tue Jun 9 20:22:14 1998
=========================================================================
From: HO YEUNG YIP <vhstamps@netvigator.com>
Subject: Re: EL84, was: Output Transformer, VV52s, and the new 2A3
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 01:03:45 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n307
Timothy Yung wrote:
>
> Joe/Alfia,
>
> I think the EL84 SE DIY use a single12AT7 as driver. What we heard last Sat
> was a 3-mica GEC A2900 made in the 50's. I understand 12AX7 can be used as
> well.
>
> Tim
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: alfia mak <alfiamak@hkstar.com>
> To: 'joe.pang@citicorp.com' <joe.pang@citicorp.com>;
> 'Hartmut.Quaschik@mch.sni.de' <Hartmut.Quaschik@mch.sni.de>
> Cc: 'sound practice list' <sound@deliverator.io.com>
> Date: Tuesday, 9 June 1998 20:03
> Subject: RE: EL84, was: Output Transformer, VV52s, and the new 2A3
>
> >Joe,
> >One correction to the cost, it should be HKD not USD. The EL84 was driven
> by a 12AX7 and a 12AT7 from what I know.
> >
> >Alfia
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Joe Pang [SMTP:joe.pang@citicorp.com]
> >Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 1998 5:52 PM
> >To: Hartmut.Quaschik@mch.sni.de
> >Cc: joe.pang@citicorp.com; sound practice list
> >Subject: Re: EL84, was: Output Transformer, VV52s, and the new 2A3
> >
> >Hartmut,
> >
> >Nice to hear from you.
> >Perhaps it is not quite fair to compare the
> >EL84 with other amps in the same group.
> >The one we have is a truely DIY built up from
> >scraps. Total costs is about US$ 650. with no
> >choke, small electrolytic caps. and just
> >so so output transformer. Furthermore, it
> >is transistor rectified and in single end
> >ultra linear mode driven by two halves of 12AX7
> >(one-half for each channel).
> >
> >We agreed that it is a definite best buy,
> >a must for space limited situation in bed
> >room for low level listening. Compared with
> >other triodes, the EL84 sounds a bit raw
> >and coarse due to the minimalism in its
> >configuration. I am sure a tube rectified,
> >choked version will make it a very attractive
> >alternative.
> >
> >Best
> >
> >JP
> >
> >
> >Hartmut wrote:
> >>
> >> Joe Pang wrote:
> >> > Last Friday, we underwent a listening session with
> >> > three 300Bs, one EL84, one EL 34 single end and one
> >> > 0.5 watt 417A and the modified Fi 2A3. The panel
> >> > agreed that the 2A3 scores in terms of transparency
> >> > and delicacy.
> >>
> >> Joe,
> >>
> >> Having an EL84-3*EL84 single ended triode mode triple
> >> parallel 4 watt amp with EL84 in input stage, too, I am
> >> interested in how good was the EL84 in your listening
> >> session.
> >> I prefer mine to SunAudio 2A3 and 300B and Shindo Palmer
> >> 300B Cetron.
> >>
> >> regards,
> >> Hartmut from Munich
> >
> >From owner-sound@lists.io.com Tue Jun 9 20:22:14 1998
Dear All:
Eric is the guy who build this lovely little cue EL84 (ultra linear with
3-4W output power) which only drive by a single 12AX7 or 12AT7. The amp
is still in my house for audition. Believe it or all, it drive my LS
3/5A and produce a lovely mid vocal and string. I think this amp has
lots of potential if it is built with rectifier and good cap.
Before I'm going to build this EL84, I would like to have a SE KT66. Any
good suggestions for schematic and drivers, or output transformer. I
have in mind is the KT66 driven by one 6SL7 and 6SN7 for each stage. OPT
is a locally made 3.5K transformer.
Vincent
=========================================================================
From: Paul Joppa <pdj@ISDNseattle.net>
Subject: Re: EL-86, was Cheap 6BQ5s (sort of)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 21:47:10 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n433
Tim Reese wrote:
...snip!...
> >BUT.. the EL 86 won4t like more than 200V at the G2.
> Yes, I had thought that the G2 (screen here in the 'states) is voltage
> limited, like the SV83. Triode and U/L need not apply.
Actually, both are specified for 10% distortion at 2w output in triode
mode. The EL86 just runs at 170v/60+mA, with a smaller load impedance.
Looked it up the recently-posted
http://www.duncanamps.simplenet.com/tubedata/tubesearch.html
- -Paul Joppa
=========================================================================
From: Robert Root <rrjlife@earthlink.net>
Subject: Elac Cartridge
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 20:02:34 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n098
I am very impressed with my new Elac Cartridge. Model No.
ESG 896 H SP-24. It has great base, smooth mids and sweet
highs. Priced just right under $250. I'am using a Loesch
phono stage right now, but am building Cirzo Marzio's phono
two tube preamp to go with the Euridice line stage. I will
keep you informed on the difference.
RR
=========================================================================
From: Ed Johnson <rb1304@alltel.net>
Subject: Electra-print
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 22:01:44 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n065
Has anyone had any experience with the 10k electra-print transformers?
=========================================================================
From: "Alfia Mak" <alfiamak@hkstar.com>
Subject: Electraprint
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 21:52:02 +0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n545
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BE2C62.F9F73EE0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Anyone know the web page for electraprint ?
Thanks
- ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BE2C62.F9F73EE0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>Anyone know the web =
page for=20
electraprint ?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Thanks</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
- ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BE2C62.F9F73EE0--
=========================================================================
From: Chris Beck <n9zes@execpc.com>
Subject: Re: Electraprint
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 09:49:11 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n546
It's at http://www.execpc.com/~n9zes/electra.html
Chris Beck
Alfia Mak wrote:
> Anyone know the web page for electraprint ? Thanks
=========================================================================
From: Chris Beck <n9zes@execpc.com>
Subject: Electra-Print site
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:19:54 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n542
Just a quick note. Evidently there was some formatting problems with
the page formatting and MS Explorer. I've fixed these, so it should
look right on Netscape as well as Explorer.
Please let me know if there are any other problems.
Chris Beck
=========================================================================
From: Chris Beck <n9zes@execpc.com>
Subject: Electra-Print website
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:48:52 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n542
Joes:
I'm proud to announce that Jack at Electra-Print is now on the Web.
He's at: http://www.execpc.com/~n9zes/electra.html
I've put together a page with all his products and prices up on my site
for now. I'll be adding schematics soon, so watch out for it to grow
and to move off onto it's own site in the near future. Jack has some
really nice things he's working on.
I'll add that I'm in no way associated with Electra-Print Audio Co. I'm
just a satisfied customer and wanted to return some of the help and
advice Jack has given me over the last year.
Enjoy!
Chris Beck
=========================================================================
From: tubesguy@mail.execpc.com (Patrick Currie)
Subject: Electricity 101
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 08:26:21 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n430
I have a seemingly impossible problem to solve, and my limited
understanding of things electrical is not coming to the rescue. Perhaps you
can help.
I've been doing some fine-tuning on the 845 para amp, and I decided after
the VSAC show to try SS rectification in place of the damper diodes that I
had been using. Then, to tame the diode noise, I decided to use Camille's
techniques, then decided to go with the Camille supply itself, one section
only, up to the smoothing choke. (The supply is choke input.) I used
Panasonic TSHA caps and common-mode chokes, and 'freds for the
recitification.
Well, this turned out great, with _way_ better high-end extension and
noticeably more of the cool groany background things than the old supply.
(By the way, here's a suggestion for VSAC: specify a B+ voltage and current
output, and a specific female connector. Build a supply following whatever
religion you follow, and bring it on. With a test mule power amp, sans B+,
and speakers, we could have a real shoot-out. Might even get the New York
boys to finally show up.)
So, then I decided to just check voltages. B+ was only 405v, so I goosed
it with a cap before the choke to get 422v. Now my -45v battery bias
supply clearly seemed too puny, so I wanted -51v. I went down to the Rat
Shack, and picked up a battery holder and 4 AA cells. Checked them, got
6.something volts. Great, hooked them up in series with the 45v battery and
got ... 45 volts! That's not possible, is it? Of course I had already
yanked the amp up and soldered in the new battery pack, before verifying
that I had -51, then had to lift it up again (quite a project for one
person, by the way) and undo it and poke around some more. To no avail.
So, what gives? Batteries in series are additive, are they not? How can I
add (or subtract, given the always present possibility that my
electro-dsylexia struck again) without changing the voltage?
Baffled in Madison
Pat Currie (tubesguy@execpc.com)
=========================================================================
From: rlahlum@juno.com (Ross J Lahlum)
Subject: Re: Electricity 101
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 22:28:40 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n430
Pat wrote:
>Shack, and picked up a battery holder and 4 AA cells. Checked them,
>got
>6.something volts. Great, hooked them up in series with the 45v
>battery and
>got ... 45 volts! That's not possible, is it? Of course I had
>already
>yanked the amp up and soldered in the new battery pack, before
>verifying
>that I had -51, then had to lift it up again (quite a project for one
>person, by the way) and undo it and poke around some more. To no
>avail.
>
>So, what gives?
Pat -
Must be something else going on!
DId you measure the 45 + 6 volt batteries in series outside of the
circuit?
Are you SURE you got the polarities in line?
Did the 45 volt battery get tired?
Curious to see what it was!
Regards,
Ross
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: Electricity 101
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 17:51:42 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n431
Check all respective voltages (measure battery one by one). Maybe some
batteries are stamped the wrong way around ?
If you feed the bias with batteries you should do the same for B+
Succes
Guido
>So, what gives? Batteries in series are additive, are they not? How can I
>add (or subtract, given the always present possibility that my
>electro-dsylexia struck again) without changing the voltage?
>
>Baffled in Madison
>
>Pat Currie (tubesguy@execpc.com)
>
>
>
=========================================================================
From: "Reid Welch" <rewelch@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Electricity 101
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 16:15:46 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n433
On Sat 9/26/98 11:52 AM Guido wrote:
<snip>
>If you feed the bias with batteries you should do the same for B+
By what reasoning is that?
TIA,
Reid
=========================================================================
From: trs@carlsmith.com
Subject: Electricity (longish)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 11:24:10 -1000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n450
Back when y'all were talking story about all the bad
things that can happen with HV, I was reminded of a great
old Hunter Thompson piece called "Electricity", which I
finally found in my archives. Some of you (especially Doc)
might enjoy the following excerpt:
"Electricity is neutral. It doesn't want to kill you, but it will if
you give it a chance. Electricity wants to go home, and to
find a quick way to get there--and it will.
Electricity is always homesick. It is lonely. But it is also
lazy. . . It is like a hillbilly with a shotgun and a jug of
whiskey gone mad for revenge on some enemy--a fatal
attraction, for sure--but he won't go much out of his way to
chase the bugger down if ambush looks a lot easier.
Why prowl around and make a spectacle of yourself when
you can lay in wait under some darkened bridge and swill
whiskey like a troll full of hate until your victim
appears--drunk and careless and right on schedule-- so close
that you feel almost embarrassed about pulling the trigger.
That is how electricity likes to work.. It has no feelings
except loneliness, laziness, and a hatred of anything that
acts like resistance . . .like a wharf rat with its back to the
wall, it won't fight unless it has to, but then it will fight to the
death.
* * *
Some people had to have their loose hand strapped behind
them in a hammerlock with rubber cords, just to keep their
hearts from exploding and their neck nerves from being fried
like long blond hairs in a meat fire when the voltage went
through. But sooner or later they learned. We all did, one
way or another."
from Songs of the Doomed - Gonzo Papers Vol. 3 copyright
Hunter S. Thompson etc. etc.
=========================================================================
From: Guido Tent <gtent@ehv.sc.philips.com>
Subject: electronics fun
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 09:46:01 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n060
Guys,
I heard a funny story yesterday. Dump store. Lots of old radios, some
"serious" hifi crap
Shop technician to client:
"Once an amplifier has been repaired, it will never sound the same. When you
repair you always have to replace the 5 or 7 transistors by a matched set"
Guido
=========================================================================
From: John Hancock <hancock@rfa.com>
Subject: Electrostatic direct drive
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 14:22:31 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n003
I just picked up a cheap pair of Martin Logan CLSII replacement panels.
The plan is to build a push pull 845 amp that can also be used to
directly drive the electrostatic panels. When using the amp to directly
drive the panels, I will parallel feed the panels, using the output
transformers as chokes (that is no load or very large resistive load on
the secondary). Diagram is below. I suppose I should put a small
inducter in series with the capacitive load so that impedance does not
get too small at high frequencies. Any comments? Any problems using a
push pull OPT as a choke in this manner with the secondary left open?
Thanks in advance for any comments or suggestions,
John
------------------------------- -----
| | 6 | | 6
| | 6 | | 6
| ----- Primary6 | | 6 Secondary
| ----- C of OPT 6 | | 6 of OPT
| | 6 | | 6
| | 6 | | 6
--------- |---------- 6 | | 6
- - - - - | | 6 | | 6
--------- 845 | \ 6 | | 6
| | Capac- / B+O 6 | | 6
| | itive \ R | 6 | | 6
| | Load / | 6 | | 6
----| ------- |____ --6 | | 6
| | ------- | | 6 | | 6
----- | | / ----- 6 | | 6
G--- | | \ G--- 6 | | 6
- | | / - 6 | | 6
| | \ R 6 | | 6
--------- | | 6 | | 6
- - - - - |---------- 6 | | 6
--------- 845 | 6 | | 6
| | 6 | | 6
| | 6 | | 6
| ------- 6 | | 6
| ------- C 6 | | 6
| | 6 | | 6
| | 6 | | 6
-------------------------------- -----
=========================================================================
From: Scott Grammer <gesic@cdc.net>
Subject: Re: Electrostatic direct drive
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 16:15:20 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n003
John Hancock wrote:
> I just picked up a cheap pair of Martin Logan CLSII replacement
> panels.
> The plan is to build a push pull 845 amp that can also be used to
> directly drive the electrostatic panels. When using the amp to
> directly
> drive the panels, I will parallel feed the panels, using the output
> transformers as chokes (that is no load or very large resistive load
> on
> the secondary). Diagram is below. I suppose I should put a small
> inducter in series with the capacitive load so that impedance does not
>
> get too small at high frequencies. Any comments? Any problems using
> a
> push pull OPT as a choke in this manner with the secondary left open?
>
I would use a secondary load of about four times the tap rating ( 64
ohms on a 16 ohm tap) to keep the HV at the primary from going too high.
I would not add inductors ion series with the panels, but rather
resistance, say, 500ohms/20W?
Just my 0.02
S.G.
>
>
- --
"To save every cog and wheel is the first
precaution of intelligent tinkering." -Aldo Leopold.
Check out TubeDude's Webpage of Vacuum Tube Lore!
http://www.cdc.net/~gesic
=========================================================================
From: Dan Cheever <cheever@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Electrostatic direct drive
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 14:18:07 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n004
Hi John
Im an estat direct drive nut too.
I have soundlab dynastats- a hybrid w/ woofer for below 150hz.
I guess I dont understand the schematic.
Why the extra C's in sereis w/ the panel
Why the inductor in paralell w/ the cap train. It'l just lower Zin at lower
freqs, not
help the cap of the panel at high freqs?
Why not high voltage xray tubes. Do you think you need the 845 current?
I have not heard either way, but Nobu S insists on using transmitting tubes at
high current-low voltage.
How about putting 2 inductors in series with the panels grids?
the L would react in inverse to the C, flattening the Z vs freq, true??
- -Dan
At 02:22 PM 8/27/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I just picked up a cheap pair of Martin Logan CLSII replacement panels.
>The plan is to build a push pull 845 amp that can also be used to
>directly drive the electrostatic panels. When using the amp to directly
>drive the panels, I will parallel feed the panels, using the output
>transformers as chokes (that is no load or very large resistive load on
>the secondary). Diagram is below. I suppose I should put a small
>inducter in series with the capacitive load so that impedance does not
>get too small at high frequencies. Any comments? Any problems using a
>push pull OPT as a choke in this manner with the secondary left open?
>
>Thanks in advance for any comments or suggestions,
>
> John
>
>
> ------------------------------- -----
> | | 6 | | 6
> | | 6 | | 6
> | ----- Primary6 | | 6 Secondary
> | ----- C of OPT 6 | | 6 of OPT
> | | 6 | | 6
> | | 6 | | 6
> --------- |---------- 6 | | 6
> - - - - - | | 6 | | 6
> --------- 845 | \ 6 | | 6
> | | Capac- / B+O 6 | | 6
> | | itive \ R | 6 | | 6
> | | Load / | 6 | | 6
> ----| ------- |____ --6 | | 6
> | | ------- | | 6 | | 6
> ----- | | / ----- 6 | | 6
> G--- | | \ G--- 6 | | 6
> - | | / - 6 | | 6
> | | \ R 6 | | 6
> --------- | | 6 | | 6
> - - - - - |---------- 6 | | 6
> --------- 845 | 6 | | 6
> | | 6 | | 6
> | | 6 | | 6
> | ------- 6 | | 6
> | ------- C 6 | | 6
> | | 6 | | 6
> | | 6 | | 6
> -------------------------------- -----
>
>
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ---------------------*
| Dan Cheever DC Acoustics
|
| "A day without tubes.. is like.... night"
\|/ |
| Tube stuff-> http://web.mit.edu/cheever/www/main.htm (0 0)
|
*----------------------------------------------------------------------uuuu-
- ---U----uuuu--*
=========================================================================
From: Michel Paquette <paqm01@GEL.USherb.CA>
Subject: Re: Electrostatic direct drive
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 15:20:15 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n004
Hello John,
I wanted to do the exact same thing a while ago. Somebody once gave me
some used ML panels; they are supposed to be "not good". I think its
because they have a leakage current between the panels due to dust and
cigarette smoke. I thought that having a bias supply of lower impedance
would cure things. Anyway, I wanted to build a direct drive amp for it,
using tubes. I never really thought of using a output tranny as an
inductor. I wonder if the insulation will hold up: the peak to peak
needed voltages for the panels is probably several thousands volts. I
thought of simply using load resistors. I never got the project of the
ground, the panels have been in a box under my bed for several years now.
I once had a nice article from the Web on how to build electrostatic
speakers. It gave the necessary voltage on the panels to get any loudness
out of them. Unfortunately, I loss it when my hard disk went to the the
hard disk garden in the sky.
Please give me some feedback if you ever get the project working.
Best regards,
Deafboy
>I just picked up a cheap pair of Martin Logan CLSII replacement panels.
>The plan is to build a push pull 845 amp that can also be used to
>directly drive the electrostatic panels. When using the amp to directly
>drive the panels, I will parallel feed the panels, using the output
>transformers as chokes (that is no load or very large resistive load on
>the secondary). Diagram is below. I suppose I should put a small
>inducter in series with the capacitive load so that impedance does not
>get too small at high frequencies. Any comments? Any problems using a
>push pull OPT as a choke in this manner with the secondary left open?
>
>Thanks in advance for any comments or suggestions,
>
> John
>
>
> ------------------------------- -----
> | | 6 | | 6
> | | 6 | | 6
> | ----- Primary6 | | 6 Secondary
> | ----- C of OPT 6 | | 6 of OPT
> | | 6 | | 6
> | | 6 | | 6
> --------- |---------- 6 | | 6
> - - - - - | | 6 | | 6
> --------- 845 | \ 6 | | 6
> | | Capac- / B+O 6 | | 6
> | | itive \ R | 6 | | 6
> | | Load / | 6 | | 6
> ----| ------- |____ --6 | | 6
> | | ------- | | 6 | | 6
> ----- | | / ----- 6 | | 6
> G--- | | \ G--- 6 | | 6
> - | | / - 6 | | 6
> | | \ R 6 | | 6
> --------- | | 6 | | 6
> - - - - - |---------- 6 | | 6
> --------- 845 | 6 | | 6
> | | 6 | | 6
> | | 6 | | 6
> | ------- 6 | | 6
> | ------- C 6 | | 6
> | | 6 | | 6
> | | 6 | | 6
> -------------------------------- -----
=========================================================================
From: John Hancock <hancock@rfa.com>
Subject: RE: Electrostatic direct drive
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 08:35:51 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n004
Dan Cheever wrote:
> I guess I dont understand the schematic.
> Why the extra C's in sereis w/ the panel
>
So that I the panels are at ground, not at B+.
> Why the inductor in paralell w/ the cap train. It'l just lower Zin at
> lower
> freqs, not
> help the cap of the panel at high freqs?
>
I'm not positive I understand this question. The only inductor I have
in the schematic is the output transformer. It is there to act as a
current source for the 845--DC goes through the inductor, AC through the
panel. How would you do this without one?
> Why not high voltage xray tubes. Do you think you need the 845
> current?
> I have not heard either way, but Nobu S insists on using transmitting
> tubes at
> high current-low voltage.
>
I don't a capacitor meter, so I can't measure the capacitance of the
panel, but I'm estimating 1200 pF, just from the size and a guess as to
the D/S spacing. As I recall, with 2500V (which I can come close to
with a pair of 845's at 1250 B+), that would mean a max current of 18
mA, so no, I don't need the current. I'm not familiar with the xray
tubes, sounds interesting. How can I find out more?
> How about putting 2 inductors in series with the panels grids?
> the L would react in inverse to the C, flattening the Z vs freq,
> true??
>
Yes, but what it would do to the output vs. frequency?
Thanks very much for the feedback, John
=========================================================================
From: Lancelot Dow <dow@ccmail.ram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Electrostatic direct drive
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 97 12:29:38 GMT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n004
John wrote;
I just picked up a cheap pair of Martin Logan CLSII replacement panels.
Lucky man.
[snip]
This scheme has been used before and it does work. A friend of mine is
currently using it with his DIY ESLs. He has modified his Quad IIs to
do exactly what you're trying to do.
Like Scott says, you need to load the secondary.
A couple of other things to watch for. The signal voltage available at
the plates of the 845s may not be enough to drive your CLS panels to
sufficientlty high levels.
Also, you're driving the panels from a relatively high impedance
source (rp of the 845s?), and the CLS is a big full-range ESL, which
is a large capacitance load. You may have bandwidth problems.
My friend's ESLs are not full range and are much more sensitive than
the CLSs so he isn't affected by these two considerations.
Keep us posted on your progress. There aren't enough ESL users on this
list.
Lance
dow@ccmail.ram.co.uk
=========================================================================
From: "Daniel J. Marshall" <danmarshall@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Electrovoice 12W Woofers
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 12:32:31 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n389
Hi All,
In a three way trade I ended up with a pair of EV 12W 12 inch woofers.
These are the guys with the huge alnico magnets about the size of your
head, like SP12s w/o whizzer cones; frames are chrome. The only problem
is, and this was not disclosed by the chap who sold them, they have very
dissimilar characteristics and I would like to somehow trade around to
end up with a reasonably similar pair, or perhaps buy one and sell one,
sell them separarately, or sell them both, whatever, I'm easy.
One unit bears an early serial number and has an fs of approximately 55
Hz. I didn't use the frequency counter, but can do so if anyone wants a
precise answer. The other is a later model with an fs of 32 Hz. It has
a vented dustcap while the other is solid. They have a sufficiently
dissmilar fs such that I would rather not try to use them as a pair.
If anyone has a similar problem, or needs a one-only speaker, or maybe
wants to sell a one-only speaker that will match (preferably) the lower
frequency unit, then please drop me an email. I also have a pair of EV
TW-35 tweeers I am not sure I will ever use, esp if the woofer problem
is not satisfactorily sorted out. A set of 800 - 3,500 EV midrange
drivers and horns are also available (from my nephew who is mainly into
PA eq so he doesn't use these). These three component types, assuming
better matching woofers can be arranged would comprise very good,
extremely high efficiency speaker systems. But, what the heck, I have
been at it again, collecting way more speakers than I know what to do
with, so need to strike a few, so if anyone is inerested in any of this
stuff please whip off an email.
Dan Marshall
=========================================================================
From: Ned Carlson <ned@triodeel.com>
Subject: Re:EM81
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 01:24:10
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n124
At 09:07 PM 12/2/97 -0600, you wrote:
sound-digest Tuesday, December 2 1997 Volume 01 : Number 123
(Note: I get this in digest form, 'cause I already get enough
individual e-mails..so several reponses are compiled into one here)
>Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 00:40:23 -0500
>From: Eric Knudsen <osgood@knudsenengineering.com>
>Subject: Preventing SPAM in this mailing list
>Of particular interest is the variable:
>
>restrict_post
>if used only addresses in files mentioned can get messages distributed
>through mailing list.
Yeah, this is the only list server I've ever subscribed to that accepted posts
from non-subscribers.
>From: Randall H Thatcher@ROCKWELL on 12/02/97 12:28 PM
>- -What is a Telefunken EM 84?
The American number is 6FG6.
There are many other tubes of this type 6BR5/EM80,
EMM801 (the Dyna FM3 indicator tube), 6U5, 6E5, etc.
>i have one in a Telefunken tabletop radio my
>uncle gave me. it lights up blue from both ends... very cool effect. how
>could one use this tube to make a preamp or power amp look cool?
Simple, buffer & rectify the audio AC voltage to make a
variable negative voltage to vary the target size.
This used to be done quite commonly on old tapehead
preamps in lieu of a VU meter.
>just an
>idea. are they available now?
They aren't being made any more, but "magic eye"
tubes like tose aren't terribly hard to find, tho
a few (like EMM801, which is a dual-target tube)
are kinda expensive.
>- -Could someone lead me to a site (or just email me) the pinouts of the 5842
>(417A) tube?
1= plate, 3= fil, 4= grid, 5= grid, 6=cathode, 7= grid,
8= grid, 9= fil.
This is in the GE Essential Characteristics book, which is available
as a reprint for $13.95 (gratuitous plug, sorry!)
I think there is more data at : http://duncanamps.simplenet.com
>- -in exchange for the tabletop radio, i have to build my uncle an Integrated
>amp (he'll pay parts cost, of course). Any ideas on a design that will
>cost less than $1000?
Well, you could buy a whole integrated tube amp from MCM for $499.
Or a kit amp and amp together from them for a little over $500,
tubes included! Sure, it's Chinese, but it would be tough to even
scratchbuild one for that kind of money! Heck, even if you redid the
whole thing with silver wire & fancy caps, it'd still be less
than $1000!
http://www.mcmelectronics.com
If you want to look at a bunch of power amp diagrams, you can see some
at http://www.triodeel.com/dusty.htm
Best Regards, Ned Triode Electronics,2225 W Roscoe St
Chicago, IL, 60618 USA ph 773-871-7459 fax 773-871-7938
"Worldwide Service, Neighborhood Prices" since 1985
Open 12:30 to 8 PM CT, (1830-0200 UTC) 12:30-5 Sat, Closed Wed & Sun
See our constantly evolving web site at http://www.triodeel.com
Text file catalogs: Send a request to our Catalog 'Bot at
catalog@triodeel.com
=========================================================================
From: "Doc B." <bottlehead@silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: EM84/6FG6 and other Indicator Tubes
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 15:20:45 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n491
There's a simple circuit shown in that article too. It works fine as a
reasonably accurate clipping indicator. What I use is fairly close to that
circuit, mine came from an article in Audion a couple years back, which I'm
afraid I can't lay my hands on. I ended up with a sensitivity such that the
signal taken from the 16 ohm tap of the OT was just about right to "close
the eye" at a 5%THD power level.
By the way, it's a VV52 amp. A 300B would die an exquisite death in that
puppy.
Doc B.
www.bottlehead.com
- -----Original Message-----
From: Rhthatcher@ra.rockwell.com <Rhthatcher@ra.rockwell.com>
To: sound@deliverator.io.com <sound@deliverator.io.com>
Date: Sunday, November 15, 1998 3:20 PM
Subject: EM84/6FG6 and other Indicator Tubes
>
>I saw Doc's 300B amp at VSAC and today looked
>at an old Glass Audio for info on using indicator
>tubes. any ideas on using 6AF6 or EM84/6FG6 indicator
>tubes on a power amp? the article in GA looked pretty
>overkill... And ideas, schems, or other info would
>be appreciated! :)
>
>randy
>
>
>
=========================================================================
From: Rhthatcher@ra.rockwell.com
Subject: EM84/6FG6 and other Indicator Tubes
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 17:28:06 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n491
I saw Doc's 300B amp at VSAC and today looked
at an old Glass Audio for info on using indicator
tubes. any ideas on using 6AF6 or EM84/6FG6 indicator
tubes on a power amp? the article in GA looked pretty
overkill... And ideas, schems, or other info would
be appreciated! :)
randy
=========================================================================
From: Grover Gardner <groverg@postoffice.att.net>
Subject: Re: EM84/6FG6 and other Indicator Tubes
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 19:21:29 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n491
At 5:28 PM -0500 11/15/98, Rhthatcher@ra.rockwell.com wrote:
>I saw Doc's 300B amp at VSAC and today looked
>at an old Glass Audio for info on using indicator
>tubes. any ideas on using 6AF6 or EM84/6FG6 indicator
>tubes on a power amp? the article in GA looked pretty
>overkill... And ideas, schems, or other info would
>be appreciated! :)
Was this the article about level indicator tubes? Cool, but beyond me at
this point :-) My thought was to use them as bias indicators--possible?
Grover Gardner
groverg@postoffice.att.net
=========================================================================
From: Rhthatcher@ra.rockwell.com
Subject: Re: EM84/6FG6 and other Indicator Tubes
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 00:19:58 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n492
the article:
http://www.megabaud.fi/~jtolonen/ga/peakmtr/peakmtr.html
randy
Grover Gardner <groverg@postoffice.att.net> on 11/15/98 08:21:29 PM
To: Randall H Thatcher/Cleveland/RA/Rockwell, sound@deliverator.io.com
cc:
Subject: Re: EM84/6FG6 and other Indicator Tubes
At 5:28 PM -0500 11/15/98, Rhthatcher@ra.rockwell.com wrote:
>I saw Doc's 300B amp at VSAC and today looked
>at an old Glass Audio for info on using indicator
>tubes. any ideas on using 6AF6 or EM84/6FG6 indicator
>tubes on a power amp? the article in GA looked pretty
>overkill... And ideas, schems, or other info would
>be appreciated! :)
Was this the article about level indicator tubes? Cool, but beyond me at
this point :-) My thought was to use them as bias indicators--possible?
Grover Gardner
groverg@postoffice.att.net
=========================================================================
From: David Home <DHome@creo.com>
Subject: Email address for speaker maker 'CAMBER'
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:41:25 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n570
They are in Montreal I believe and make small two ways. I need a new
tweeter(s) for some I am fixing, and no information in printed on the
speakers or drivers. Thanks.
=========================================================================
From: Rick Francis <rfranci@uoft03.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: E-mail for VAC/Kevin Hayes?
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 00:18:16 -0500 (EST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n122
Anyone got an e-mail address for Valve Amplification Company or Kevin Hayes?
Thanks,
Rick Francis, rfranci@uoft03.utoledo.edu
=========================================================================
From: Steve Van Osdell <svanos@toast.net>
Subject: Email of OPT Rewinder
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 00:49:41 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n204
Here is Richare 'Dick' Clark's email address. Tell him Steve referred you.
Thanks, Steve
=========================================================================
From: Dave Stagner <dstagner@icarus.net>
Subject: Email problems
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:59:49 -0500 (CDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n308
My email server has decided to go spastic right when its administrator
left for Disneyland. :( Hopefully, this message will get out...
If anyone needs to reach me and mail bounces, or i don't respond fairly
quickly, try emailing dstagner@leepfrog.com, or call me at 319-337-8269
and leave a message.
- -dave
Practice beautiful randomness and act kind of senseless.
<dstagner@icarus.net>
=========================================================================
From: stalley@sally.com
Subject: EmailSpecial
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 98 09:58:07 EST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n159
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type 'remove' in the subject, click on address below and send).
mailto:remove3@netmarktec.com
=========================================================================
From: postmast@musicworks.co.nz (Stephen Delft)
Subject: Re: EMC compliance
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 22:39:15 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n025
>Guido Tent
>Engineer Electro Magnetic Compatibility
Hi Guido,
I noticed your special area of work at the end of your last reply.
Could you explain, for me and for others here.... What must a tube
audio amplifier (and its maker) have, so it will comply with the
appropriate Euro EMC regs for this class of device. I am particularly
interested in high-gain pre/power amps for electric guitar
amplification, which I understand may _not_ be classed as "domestic
appliances", Other people here would also be interested in high-end
audio pre and power amplifiers.
I made some enquiries here in NZ....and the answer _seems_ to be
that compliance for this kind of audio amplifier would be relatively
simple, but the documented proof of compliance would cost me several
thousand dollars. What do I actually need, to be able to sell
an amp to a customer in Europe?
Regards, Stephen Delft
=========================================================================
From: Guido Tent <gtent@ehv.sc.philips.com>
Subject: Re: EMC compliance
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:28:45 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n029
At 22:39 15-09-97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>Guido Tent
>>Engineer Electro Magnetic Compatibility
Hi Stephen
>Hi Guido,
>I noticed your special area of work at the end of your last reply.
Yep
>Could you explain, for me and for others here.... What must a tube
>audio amplifier (and its maker) have, so it will comply with the
>appropriate Euro EMC regs for this class of device. I am particularly
>interested in high-gain pre/power amps for electric guitar
>amplification, which I understand may _not_ be classed as "domestic
>appliances", Other people here would also be interested in high-end
>audio pre and power amplifiers.
I can, but please not by mail, because it's complicated and long story. As
long as products are sold in normal shops they are considered to be
domestic, and they will have to meet EN55013 (emission) and EN55020
(immunity) in order to be sold on the European market
>I made some enquiries here in NZ....and the answer _seems_ to be
>that compliance for this kind of audio amplifier would be relatively
>simple, but the documented proof of compliance would cost me several
>thousand dollars. What do I actually need, to be able to sell
>an amp to a customer in Europe?
The law says (the EMC directive) that there must be "a presumption of
compliance". It means that you are NOT OBLIGED to carry out measurements if
you have a presumption. It is better to be save then sorry, so carrying out
some measurements is not a bad idea. If you have access to the right
equipment then you are allowed to do the measurements yourself, and write a
report. Now you are allowed to get on the market !
However, if there will be a check from a notified body that proves that you
made a mistake by your own measurements, you have to withdraw the products,
improve your product and start again. There will not be any sanction if you
prove to be a better "housefather". If you are not willing then you have a
problem, so being a good "housefather" is not bad......
By looking at your product you can simply exclude some measurements e.g. you
do not expect RF emission above 30 MHz (unless you have a micro-processor
controlled amplifier !), so you only have to measure conducted emission to
the mains. Do not worry about mains harmonics because there still is a
batlle between standardisation and the electricity companies). And so on,
and so on
Do not be more catholic then the pope. Buy those two standards and start
your measurements.
Note: besides EMC a standard for safety exists too..............
Have fun
Guido
> Regards, Stephen Delft
>
>
>
" 640K ought to be enough for anybody" , Bill Gates, 1981
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed herin are my personal ones and do not in
any way reflect opinions or policies of my employer.
Guido Tent
Engineer Electro Magnetic Compatibility
Philips Semiconductors Systems Laboratory Eindhoven (PS-SLE)
Building BE303, (Hurksestraat 19)
P.O.Box 218, 5600MD Eindhoven, The Netherlands
Phone: +31-40-27 24553
fax : +31-40-27 22764
- - Let's make things better ! -
E-mail: guido.tent@ehv. sc.philips.com
Seri : gtent@nlsce1
=========================================================================
From: postmast@musicworks.co.nz (Stephen Delft)
Subject: Re: EMC compliance
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 22:50:13 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n030
Re amplifier EMC compliance ...Guido replied:
> (snip) you are allowed to do the measurements yourself
> (snip) Buy those two standards (snip)
> (snip) have fun
Oh, I shall have lots of fun ;-)
Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.
Stephen,
=========================================================================
From: Guido Tent <gtent@ehv.sc.philips.com>
Subject: EMC for small companies (was Re: visit to Seoul)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 10:30:08 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n055
Hi Stephen, joenetters
At 12:16 3-10-97 -0400, Stephen Delft wrote:
>
>Guido said:
>>I'll be in Seoul for IEC EMC standardisation meetings, end of this month (19
>>Anyone any suggestions ?
>
>Well....exemption for beginning companies with very small production
>would be nice....( What English calls "Cottage Industry")
I am within standardisation in TC47/WG2 . My job there is to define
measurement methods for the mesurement of emission and immunity of logic ICs
I do not set limits, nor can I influence relaxation for small companies,
allthough I know what you mean
What I do is define methods which are small, compact of set up, not
expensive, and have easy interpretation with good relation towards practice,
because I know samll companies, with less experience have to deal with these
methods too (I have a goal in my mind......)
The main problem of EMC legislation in Europe is that all governments have
said yes to the standardisation (in order to get along the "europe is one"
train), but no government is actually pro-active in informing or helping
(small) companies with the obligations they are confronted with
Within my lab we are confronted daily with these problems, and we do our
best to help customers out of the dark
An other problem is that notified boddies have $ in their eyes. They have a
guaranteed market, due to CE marking and they squeeze out all customers.......
On top of that they are not always competent (enough), and have no
consistent opinion (this is also due to the standards, they sometimes are
ambiguous)
Hope this helps a little
>Please forgive me if this argument has already been beaten to death
>in England and elsewhere - I've been at the other end of the world
>for 14 years and I've probably missed the fun....
Welcom back
>How are the smallest HiFi makers in England dealing with EMC regs ?
Some simply ignore, some not aware, som into the process of dealing with. I
have contacts with AudioNote
>Perhaps some people on the list are in this position, and would be
>willing to share their experience and survival strategies.
I can, but givce me some time, also wrt translating the articles
>Actually, it's difficult to take the EMC regs entirely seriously
>here in NZ, where power companies still modulate their supply with
>a mixed-mode 1020Hz control signal, which gets into _everything_
Why do they modulate ? Is there temporary DC involved ? Power companies are
mighty, no chance to change this !
>Sometimes the pulsed control signal can be heard faintly from
>flourescent lights, electric heaters, etc. Anything which contains an
>amplifier stands no chance!
With a decent power trannie (falls aftyer few 100 Hz), and good filtering
you should be able to come a long way. Your 1020 Hz bothers, but it is not
the worst part, AM transmitters (big ones in new zealand ?) beat you !
> Regards from New Zealand,
> -Stephen Delft.
Regards from the other side
Guido
" 640K ought to be enough for anybody" , Bill Gates, 1981
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed herin are my personal ones and do not in
any way reflect opinions or policies of my employer.
Guido Tent
Engineer Electro Magnetic Compatibility
Philips Semiconductors Systems Laboratory Eindhoven (PS-SLE)
Building BE303, (Hurksestraat 19)
P.O.Box 218, 5600MD Eindhoven, The Netherlands
Phone: +31-40-27 24553
fax : +31-40-27 22764
- - Let's make things better ! -
E-mail: guido.tent@ehv. sc.philips.com
Seri : gtent@nlsce1
=========================================================================
From: Guido Tent <gtent@ehv.sc.philips.com>
Subject: EMC in Audio (was Re: IEC sockets)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 17:51:57 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n017
Guys,
OK, just a short story
Two kinds of noise: differential mode (DM, easy to filter) and common mode (CM)
Most of the noise comes in via electrically long cables. One of them is the
mains cable, but others, as said before, are; speaker, interlink, antenna
and whatever you connecty
Most sources have high impedances, up to Mega-ohms. If you want to reduce
the current you have to add at least this impedances in order to make some
sense. Within the common materials an impedance aboce lets say some
kilo-ohm are hard to make, and above 10 to 20 MHz it's even harder, and most
CM chokes do not work at all due to their shunt capacitance !
The solution is to offer the currents on the cables a path to interchange,
without running through your vulnarable audio electronics
This path can only be made if all cables are connected to each other (meant
in the common mode way). This implicates that ALL electrically long cables
have to be close to each other (!), and connected. The centre of this
connection (further called reference) will be a screen or the cabinet, as
this will behave as an electrical screen in order to short the electrical
part of the incoming field
This is the one and only solution, and cannot be accomplished by one (of the
shelf) mains filter, but needs special care, as every application needs.
Because capacitors between live and reference, and neutral and reference are
mounted, and because this reference can be touched, these capacitors are
limited to 2,2 nF. On top of that it is advised to connect the safety earth
to the reference, in order to avoid any possible current through the human body.
THIS IS THE ONLY REASON TO CONNECTED THE SAFETY EARTH (don't annoy me with
washing machines please) AS SAFETY EARTH IS NOT SOME MAGICAL SWAMP TO DUMP
YOUR TROUBLE
Hope this helps, keep you informed. I haven't told you about the conversion
from noise to audio, but we al know about AM-detection !
Bye, have fun, take care of your B+
Guido
"to be EMC or not to be EMC, that's the question"
Guido Tent
Engineer
Electro Magnetic Compatibility
Philips Semiconductors Systems Laboratory Eindhoven (PS-SLE)
Building BE303, (Hurksestraat 19)
P.O.Box 218, 5600MD Eindhoven, The Netherlands
Phone: +31-40-27 24553
fax : +31-40-27 22764
E-mail: guido.tent@ehv.sc.philips.com
Seri : gtent@nlsce1
- - Let's make things better ! -
=========================================================================
From: "Daniel J. Marshall" <danmarshall@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Emilar drivers/horns
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 11:57:28 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n549
Hi All,
I just noticed a pair of one inch Emilar drivers with Altec 811 horns on
ebay. The bid is just over a hundred dollars, with reserve not yet
met. The Emilar drivers are quite nice, so if anyone is in the market
for some horns/drivers, these might be worth checking out.
I traded for a pair of 811s a while back with a pair of generic
University phenolic-diaphram drivers. They have quite a nice midrange.
When I compared them to the Emilar drivers and bow-tie horns using a
simple first order xover, they had a better midrange than the Emilar,
but do need a supertweeter, whereas, the Emilars do not. The better
midrange could have been, in part, due to the very narrow vertical horn
mouth dimension of the bow-tie Emilar horn which gives them a
pinched-off, hard sound when crossed over too low. I did not try the
Emilar drivers with the 811 horns, as they do not mate, the 811s are
screw thread and the Emilar is a two-bolt mount. There is a pair of
these University drivers also on ebay with a minimum bid of ten bucks,
as I recall, and no bids.
DM
=========================================================================
From: STEVE CORNETT <SCORNETT@usagroup.com>
Subject: Emotion in music, was Retro Lifestyle report
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 12:48:10 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n059
I have often quoted Ellington in the past, "There are only two kinds of
music, good and bad". There is nothing elitist about this. All kinds of
music can be good, and all kinds can be bad. A good performer can
inject emotion into any kind of music, and a bad performer can strip the
emotion from any kind of music. What is sad is that some people can only
hear, or identify with, the emotions conveyed in only some kinds of
music. If you can hear the joy in Bach, or the longing in Butterfly, or the
melancholy resignation of the Four Last Songs, then you should be able
to hear the longing and desire in Orbison, or the alienation in Elanore
Rigby, or the pain in Muddy Waters. To paraphrase the bard, "The fault,
dear Brutus, is not in the music, but in ourselves."
Steve C., who has listened to lots of Orbison and Strauss since his
divorce
PS. Perhaps one of the problems with many academic composers of
modern classical music is that they have forgotten that music is about
emotion, and not mathematics. For emotion in modern classical music, I
say again, listen to what the film music composers are doing. Yeah, a lot
of it is derivitive, but I must admit that I am moved by some of it. Glory,
E.T., Shindler's List, Apollo 13, and many others, have the power to
touch.
=========================================================================
From: Peter Drake <peterd@ndsuk.com>
Subject: Re: Emotion in music, was Retro Lifestyle report
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 15:38:16 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n061
If you want emotion in "popular" music then listen to
Janis Joplin. BBC2's Top Of The Pops 2 showed her with
Big Brother & the Holding Company singing "Another Little Piece
of my Heart". There is so much emotion in her voice I had tears
in my eyes. That's emotional singing (it's just a sham my wife
just thinks she's wailing!)
- --
Pete Drake
peterd@ndsuk.com
=========================================================================
From: STEVE CORNETT <SCORNETT@usagroup.com>
Subject: Re: Emotion in music, was Retro Lifestyle report
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 09:24:13 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n062
Janis singing "Ball and Chain" never fails to get to me.
Steve C.
>>> Peter Drake <peterd@ndsuk.com> 10/09/97 08:38am >>>
If you want emotion in "popular" music then listen to
Janis Joplin. BBC2's Top Of The Pops 2 showed her with
Big Brother & the Holding Company singing "Another Little Piece
of my Heart". There is so much emotion in her voice I had tears
in my eyes. That's emotional singing (it's just a sham my wife
just thinks she's wailing!)
- --
Pete Drake
peterd@ndsuk.com
=========================================================================
From: Dave Stagner <dstagner@icarus.net>
Subject: Re: Emotion in music, was Retro Lifestyle report
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:06:51 -0500 (CDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n062
I can think of all sorts of music so good it brought tears to my eyes.
Jimi Hendrix singing "Castles Made of Sand", Stan Rogers on "Lies" (I play
that one myself sometimes, and I have a hard time not choking up when I
sing it), and a few others. Sometimes, it's the content more than the
voice. I have a tremendous emotional reaction to Ornette Coleman playing
"Lonely Woman" on alto sax, even.
- -dave
By "beauty," I mean that which seems complete.
Obversely, that the incomplete, or the mutilated, is the ugly.
Venus De Milo.
To a child she is ugly. /* dstagner@icarus.net */
-Charles Fort
=========================================================================
From: Kalman Rubinson <rubinsnk@is2.nyu.edu>
Subject: Re: Emotion in music, was Retro Lifestyle report
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:31:33 -0400 (EDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n062
On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, Peter Drake wrote:
> There is so much emotion in her voice I had tears
> in my eyes. That's emotional singing (it's just a sham my wife
> just thinks she's wailing!)
No sham: I feel the same as she does.
Kal
=========================================================================
From: torgd@tolstoy.lerc.nasa.gov (Russell DeAnna)
Subject: Re: Emotion in music, was Retro Lifestyle report
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 17:35:42 -0400 (EDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n062
> Stan Rogers on "Lies" (I play
Ah, another Stan-Rogers fan! I definitely agree with
this song. "Lies" is poingant, emotional, incredible,
etc. Stan (and now Garnett) Rogers can tell a story and
make it so believable that you swear he's lived every
moment.
I saw Garnett Rogers in Cleveland back in July. He
played solo and showed up with 9 or 10 different
electric guitars. He's the antithesis of a "star."
During intermission, he lingered on stage and talked
to different people from the audience who had walked
up to meet him. Granted, he played in an old barn-style
meeting room and there were only about 100 people in
attendance.
- -Russell
=========================================================================
From: Andre Jute <andre@indigo.ie>
Subject: Re: Emotion in music, was Retro Lifestyle report
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 18:39:55 +0100 (BST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n062
At 10:06 am -0500 9/10/97, Dave Stagner wrote:
I have a tremendous emotional reaction to Ornette Coleman playing
>"Lonely Woman" on alto sax, even.
Yeah, nothing gives me a thrill like a sax heard over open water. I wrote
that in a book on graphic design, and had more letters about the sax from
designers who wanted to tell me how they love that particular instrument
than about the serious subject of the book.
Andre
Andre Jute
andre@indigo.ie
Communication Jute
the main index to the pages we support for lovers of classical music, for
writers, and for audiophiles is at
http://www.foundmark.com/ComJute/ComJuteF1.html
=========================================================================
From: "GREGORY MONFORT" <WINGRACER@classic.msn.com>
Subject: RE: Emotion in music, was Retro Lifestyle report
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 97 17:02:04 UT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n062
I second that emotion. :<)
GM
- ----------
Janis singing "Ball and Chain" never fails to get to me.
Steve C.
=========================================================================
From: "GREGORY MONFORT" <WINGRACER@classic.msn.com>
Subject: RE: Emotion in music, was Retro Lifestyle report
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 97 17:13:56 UT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n062
Or Eric Dolphy playing "Stormy Weather" also on alto sax.
GM
- ----------
I have a tremendous emotional reaction to Ornette Coleman playing
"Lonely Woman" on alto sax, even.
- -dave
=========================================================================
From: "dehls" <dehls@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Emotion in music, was Retro Lifestyle report
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 22:18:21 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n063
How about "Summertime"? Definitely my favorite, Especially after
some good single malt ;^)
David Dehls
- ----------
> From: STEVE CORNETT <SCORNETT@usagroup.com>
> To: sound@deliverator.io.com
> Subject: Re: Emotion in music, was Retro Lifestyle report
> Date: Thursday, October 09, 1997 8:24 AM
>
> Janis singing "Ball and Chain" never fails to get to me.
>
> Steve C.
>
> >>> Peter Drake <peterd@ndsuk.com> 10/09/97 08:38am >>>
> If you want emotion in "popular" music then listen to
> Janis Joplin. BBC2's Top Of The Pops 2 showed her with
> Big Brother & the Holding Company singing "Another Little Piece
> of my Heart". There is so much emotion in her voice I had tears
> in my eyes. That's emotional singing (it's just a sham my wife
> just thinks she's wailing!)
>
> --
>
> Pete Drake
> peterd@ndsuk.com
>
=========================================================================
From: "Hilary A. Paprocki" <104216.2121@compuserve.com>
Subject: RE: Emotion in music, was Retro Lifestyle report
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:08:13 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n063
>Janis singing "Ball and Chain" never fails to get to me.
I must be a little older than the group.
I can never get through
"Then You Can Tell Me Goodbye" by the Casinos
without choking up.
Hilary Paprocki
=========================================================================
From: "Hilary A. Paprocki" <104216.2121@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Emotion in music, was Retro Lifestyle report
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:13:11 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n063
>How about "Summertime"? Definitely my favorite, Especially after
>some good single malt ;^)
I'll take the Marcels' version.
Hilary Paprocki
=========================================================================
From: Richard C Nevill <rnevill@is.dal.ca>
Subject: Re: Emotion in music, was Retro Lifestyle report
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 01:24:38 -0300 (ADT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n064
On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, Russell DeAnna wrote:
> > Stan Rogers on "Lies" (I play
> > this song. "Lies" is poingant, emotional, incredible
I live in Halifax Nova Scotia, and up until he died, I used see to Stan a
couple times a year in various venues (from 100 people to 1000 people) and
now that he is is gone I very much miss the time I spent at his shows.
The world lost a wonderful song writer and performer when he died, and I
for one, miss the chance to listen to him live. I guess we don't know what
we have going for us until it is taken away
Cheers
Richard Nevill
>
> -Russell
>
>
=========================================================================
From: "Daniel J. Marshall" <danmarshall@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Empire 208/Dual CS622 Opinions/Tek 535A
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 18:16:29 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n009
I know of Empire turntables of yesteryear, but do not have any direct
experience with them, nor am I familiar with the various models. I came
across an Empire 208 turntable recently that I can get on favorable
terms in a trade for old radios. Does ayone know whether this a good
unit and about what is one worth?
Also, I have been using a Dual CS622 direct-drive turntable, off-and-on,
since I bought it new in the early eighties. It seems to be a decent
unit with very low rumble. Has anyone had experience with this unit, or
compared it with other quality turntables? Could anyone predict whether
I should expect a substantial improvement by going to another turntable
(without spending an arm and a leg). It seems to work well, but I do
not have a quality unit with which to compare it. I remember paying
about $420 for it new at a substantial discount. It has an Orthophon
cartridge, as I recall, about a $120 retail jobbie. I was considering
perhaps upgrading the cartridge, but thought I would fish for other
desirable alternatives, if any, before springing for a new cartridge.
In passing, I am planning to scrap a lovely Tektronics 535A scope
because the parts are worth more than the scope. I just picked one up
at a garage sale a while back for $25 with a scope cart and six lovely
Tek probes, one of which is a current probe (which I wanted and was the
main reason I purchased it). Inside I found a strong pair of Telefunken
12AX7s and about 20 Amperex Bugle Boy 6DJ8s, all of which I have checked
are strong. Hmmm, I think this comes to substantially more than $25.
Just thought perhaps some would like to know this lest you nonchalantly
pass one by for lack of interest. I wonder how many have ended up as
land fill with all those lovely tubes intact. It paines me no-end to
scrap a perfectly servicable and entirely lovely thing like this.
If any one needs any 535A replacement parts, other than the tubes and
the power transformer let me know and I will send them out for only
enough to cover the time and bother of packing and shipping. The crt
seems to be quite good, but I have no use for it, so if some needs one,
here it is. These things have a lovely power transformer, no-doubt well
suited to power an audio amplifier, and all the parts for a regulated B+
supply, if desired. I like the little ceramic terminal strips they use
for mounting components. It seems that they would be quite nice for
mounting audio amp parts. They require silver bearing solder, as I
recall from many years ago. So there you have it. I had to wretch over
it for a several weeks to bring myself to accept scrapping it. Is that
strange or what?
Dan Marshall
=========================================================================
From: Ron Bales <rbales@rio.atlantic.net>
Subject: Re: Empire 208/Dual CS622 Opinions/Tek 535A
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 23:34:34 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n009
Daniel J. Marshall wrote:
> I like the little ceramic terminal strips they use
> for mounting components. It seems that they would be quite nice for
> mounting audio amp parts. They require silver bearing solder, as I
> recall from many years ago.
Hi Dan, Yep gotta have the silver bearing solder for them - some Tek
gear came with a small roll of the stuff under the chassis, just in
case. Tell me of another company that thorough. I have a local source
for those terminal strips and got a couple that screw onto the bottom of
a tube socket they are ceramic Plunger shaped things with a ring of
terminal notches around the larger diameter base. Most cool.
> So there you have it. I had to wretch over
> it for a several weeks to bring myself to accept scrapping it. Is that
> strange or what?
I go through that pretty regularly. I'm sure we aren't the only ones.
ROn
=========================================================================
From: Grover Gardner <groverg@bellatlantic.net>
Subject: Re: Empire 208/Dual CS622 Opinions/Tek 535A
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 23:59:03 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n009
Daniel J. Marshall wrote:
>
> I know of Empire turntables of yesteryear, but do not have any direct
> experience with them, nor am I familiar with the various models. I came
> across an Empire 208 turntable recently that I can get on favorable
> terms in a trade for old radios. Does ayone know whether this a good
> unit and about what is one worth?
I am not familiar with what model this is, but I have seen Empires
around these parts selling for less than $100. I gave one a try once
and found it pretty screechy and unstable speed-wise, but perhaps others
have had better luck.
>
> Also, I have been using a Dual CS622 direct-drive turntable, off-and-on,
> since I bought it new in the early eighties. It seems to be a decent
> unit with very low rumble. Has anyone had experience with this unit, or
> compared it with other quality turntables? Could anyone predict whether
> I should expect a substantial improvement by going to another turntable
> (without spending an arm and a leg). It seems to work well, but I do
> not have a quality unit with which to compare it. I remember paying
> about $420 for it new at a substantial discount. It has an Orthophon
> cartridge, as I recall, about a $120 retail jobbie. I was considering
> perhaps upgrading the cartridge, but thought I would fish for other
> desirable alternatives, if any, before springing for a new cartridge.
I have seen the NAD turntables, which are the Rega Planar relabeled, one
sale in the DC area for less than $300. I love my Rega, and think this
would be a great deal. I am not familiar with the Dual DD, maybe you're
fine as is. I don't think you'd find the Empire an upgrade...Just my
.02...
- --
Grover Gardner
groverg@bellatlantic.net
=========================================================================
From: "Markowitz, Gary" <MarkowitzG@nabisco.com>
Subject: RE: Empire 208/Dual CS622 Opinions/Tek 535A
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:50:50 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n010
Dan,
> Could anyone predict whether
>I should expect a substantial improvement by going to another
turntable
>(without spending an arm and a leg). It seems to work well,
but I do
>not have a quality unit with which to compare it.
I'm a firm believer in a belt drive system with a _heavy_ platter (20
lbs is a good starting point) and suspended subchassis. All motors have
some degree of vibration, and having one connected directly to your
platter is much less than optimal, IMHO. It takes very little vibration
to produce voltage at the output of a phono cartridge, so I'd much
rather have a compliant belt and massive platter doing the filtering.
The same is to be said of "puck" drives, where the motor is connected to
a rubber puck that drives the platter. Too much vibration there, too.
I'm not familiar with the Empire turntables, but there are a few things
to check on the older units. If it is a sprung suspension, check the
play and level compared to the base. Springs on the old units can wear
and/or bend, especially if they were not stored properly. If it is
possible, check the bearing. Most turntables (in my experience with the
belt drives, at least) use some form of round or conical bearing and
flat thrust plate. Check to see that there is no apparent wear on the
cone or on the trust plate. Also check for any side to side play in the
bearing. Also, if possible. bring a strobe disk and check the speed
stablilty and accuracy. See if the platter speed drifts over time.
Again, IMHO, I would have reservations about buying something mechanical
that is relatively old. If the unit has been used a good deal, then
wear is bound to occur. This wear, in a turntable, will directly
translate to poor sonics.
As for direct drive turntables, Thorsten has been doing some interesting
things with terribly massive chassis, and maybe we can get him to chime
in on the DD side of the issue.
Gary Markowitz
MarkowitzG@nabisco.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----------------------------
"Into the keyboard, thru the processor, off the NIC, past the gateway,
nothing but Net"
=========================================================================
From: Kalman Rubinson <rubinsnk@is2.nyu.edu>
Subject: Re: Empire 208/Dual CS622 Opinions/Tek 535A
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 11:13:38 -0400 (EDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n010
On Tue, 2 Sep 1997, Daniel J. Marshall wrote:
> I know of Empire turntables of yesteryear, but do not have any direct
> experience with them, nor am I familiar with the various models. I came
> across an Empire 208 turntable recently that I can get on favorable
> terms in a trade for old radios. Does ayone know whether this a good
> unit and about what is one worth?
I know them well; I have two. The motor is, if in good shape, one of the
best ever for this application. The main platter bearing is the real
issue here since they can be abused and scored. I know of no direct
replacement for the ball or the seat, so inspect them carefully. Belt
replacement is not a problem.
Avoid the Empire arms.
Kal
=========================================================================
From: "Thorsten \"EZEE\" Loesch" <tloesh_2@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Empire 208/Dual CS622 Opinions/Tek 535A
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 18:01:28 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n010
Okay Guys,
> As for direct drive turntables, Thorsten has been doing some interesting
> things with terribly massive chassis, and maybe we can get him to chime
> in on the DD side of the issue.
If You have to ask me in on this....
> I'm a firm believer in a belt drive system with a _heavy_ platter (20
> lbs is a good starting point) and suspended subchassis. All motors have
I agree here so far, as to note that Belt-Drives should be of the Suspended
Subchassis Variety (Sorry REGA not 4 me).
As for Direct Drives, I had a number. I found one rule to apply. The
Heavier the
better. Definitly not a suspended sub-cassis.
Ultramassive DD Tables are my Kettle of Fish. Try the Technics SP-10 Motor-
unit in the Obsidian Plinth or more easily available thinks like the
Kenwood
Table I got now.
It has cast faux Marble Plinth and weights at least 20kg. I intend to
further
Mass-load some of the (arguably small) cavities in the Plinth.
I use a AR-Arm BTW and I'm looking for a nice 2nd Hand Linn Ittok or
maybe the Michell Focus Unipivot Arm. Anyone with to spare (4 sensible
Money and in the UK please?).
I also use a Goldring 1042 MM Cartridge and a Record-weight. These are
cotroversial devices. If you have a Belt-drive Table use the Michelle
Clamp.
If you have one of the Big'n Good Direct-drives the Record Weight is Okay.
Oh yes. Also, make sure the Table is absolutly level and get a HiFi-News
and Record Review Test-record to set the Table up.
Anyway the table is DEAD quiet. No rumble. Use a Flat LP and crank the
Volume WAY WAY up, you will hear grove-noise but no rumble, no flapping
Cones.
I have that Table on a home-made Air-Platform (Glass-shelf -> Bicycle inner
tube [14"] -> Glass-shelf -- both shelves are about 8mm thick).
I think the Dual is a nice Table for uncritical listening, but I'd go
hunting for
one of these mid to late 70's Japanese "Super-Decks". Here in the UK you
can pick some of them up for under $200.00.
Make sure that there is no play in the Platter Bearing when buing one.
Putting a REGA RB300 Arm on such a Deck with a nice Cartridge (Say A
Goldring 1042 MM or a Mid-Price MC like the Dynavector Karat Ruby) will
give a absolute killer Sound.
I wrote before to Gary, that the BASS from that Table I've got is as solid
as a 4 x 8 right between Your eyes. It is a Table with very good Timing
(since I rebuild the PSU that is) and has also got a superb Detail retrival
and Soundstaging.
Anyway VRTW (Vinyl Rules The World - still) listening to my Original Miles
Davis "Kind of Blue" and comparing the CD in my Marantz CD-67 TL Signature
(cheeky me - it is a heavily modified unit), the CD looses BIG TIME.
That is how good Vinyl can get. It is an awfull lot of work involved
though.
Kind regards Thorsten.
======================================
e-mail:
Torsten.Loesch@enhar-ha.nthames.nhs.uk
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed herin
are my personal ones and do not in any
way reflect opinions or policies of my
employer.
web-pages:
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~tloesh_2
======================================
=========================================================================
From: RALPH POWER <POWER.RALPH@epamail.epa.gov>
Subject: Empire 208/Dual CS622 Opinions/Tek 535A -Reply
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 10:29:41 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n009
Hi Dan,
You said:
>Also, I have been using a Dual CS622 direct-drive turntable, off-and-on, since I
>bought it new in the early eighties. It seems to be a decent unit with very low rumble.
>Has anyone had experience with this unit, or compared it with other quality turntables?
> Could anyone predict whether I should expect a substantial improvement by going to
>another turntable (without spending an arm and a leg). It seems to work well, but I do
>not have a quality unit with which to compare it.
I had a Dual 704 which was an early direct drive turntable for many years. It was good
but not great. It didn't commit any sins, but it just didn't have the life in the sound like
a good belt drive turntable does. I later went a belt drive Dual (510) and liked it better.
The NAD or Rega sounds like the best bet for bang for the buck....
My 2 cents..
- Ralph
=========================================================================
From: "blackie" <blackie@mail.infohouse.com>
Subject: Empire TT
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:55:16 +0000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n341
I have an Empire TT in my shop. Seems to be missing some parts (arm
looks incomplete, cart is fried.) Any clues on a source?
Thanks
Blackie
blackie@tubesville.com
=========================================================================
From: Kalman Rubinson <kr4@is2.nyu.edu>
Subject: Re: Empire TT
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:38:11 -0400 (EDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n341
On Mon, 13 Jul 1998, blackie wrote:
> I have an Empire TT in my shop. Seems to be missing some parts (arm
> looks incomplete, cart is fried.) Any clues on a source?
There are no sources for replacement parts, other than
stealing from other devices or machining new ones, to my
knowledge. The cartridge, of course, should be discarded.
Kal
=========================================================================
From: "Graham Ingle" <blackcat.e@virgin.net>
Subject: Enameled Silver Wire.
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 19:59:01 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n440
Hi,
I don't wish to turn the list into a market place, but in light of the
continuing interest in wire may I point out that I (we) are now able to
offer 99.999% pure silver wire ML enameled to BS68113.8. It's available in
0.6mm & 1.0mm at the moment, in any length or quantity. It is expensive but
it's still a hell of a lot cheaper than other
outlets!, price breaks for quantity. If anyone is interested please contact
me off list.
Thanks,
Graham.
blackcat electronics
mailto: blackcat.e@virgin.net
tel/fax +44 (0)1253 855294 UK
=========================================================================
From: Scott Grammer <gesic@cdc.net>
Subject: Re: Encasing transformers
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 07:41:42 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n100
Owen Young wrote:
>
> I'd appreciate any reasoning or advice on the appropriate material for
> encasing mains transformers.
(snip)
Owen:
I personally like Military Surplus trannies which are inevitably encased
in steel. They radiate little or no magnetic or electrostatic field, and
they dissipate heat better than most plastic encased trannies. Also, if
you get one that's dinged, you can bondo it like a car, then sand and
paint it and it comes out perfect!
(IMHO),
S.G.
- --
"To save every cog and wheel is the first
precaution of intelligent tinkering." -Aldo Leopold.
Check out TubeDude's Webpage of Vacuum Tube Lore!
http://www.cdc.net/~gesic
=========================================================================
From: Torsten.Loesch@FinanceManager.Finance.FinanceAndInformation.enhar-ha.nthames.nhs.uk
Subject: Re: Encasing transformers
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:41:23 +0000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n100
Hi all,
> I'd appreciate any reasoning or advice on the appropriate material for
> encasing mains transformers.
>
> Should the encasing be non magnetic(alumin,brass, stainless) or steel....ie
> effect on magnetic fields. OTOH any shielding benefits may help with
> proximity to circuitry...unless I create separate p/supply chassis which
> raises possible problems of umbilicals, appropriate connectors.
Well, my line on any type of case is, that ideally it is non-metallic
(avaoids eddy currents) and most definitlty non-magnetic.
Thus my current Pre-Amp project (Hybrid Allen Wright Design) an the
matching (Solid State Class A) Poweramp will both get prdominatly
Acrylic Cases.
But then again, I'm sure a lot of people will disagree.....
Later Thorsten
=========================================================================
From: "Owen Young" <oyoung@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Encasing transformers
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:34:14 -1200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n100
I'd appreciate any reasoning or advice on the appropriate material for
encasing mains transformers.
I'm about to undertake my first "from scratch" preamp build. I have open
"frame" style mains xfmrs which I want to encase in more visually
attractive boxes of some sort in order to on-top-of-chassis mount them in
the cool style with the tubes also exposed.
Should the encasing be non magnetic(alumin,brass, stainless) or steel....ie
effect on magnetic fields. OTOH any shielding benefits may help with
proximity to circuitry...unless I create separate p/supply chassis which
raises possible problems of umbilicals, appropriate connectors.
Pardon me if this topic is old ground...TIA
Owen Young
Auckland, New Zealand
oyoung@clear.net.nz
=========================================================================
From: "Owen Young" <oyoung@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Encasing transformers
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 08:38:32 -1200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n112
Torsten, Scott, Ed,
Thanks for the comments.
Owen
=========================================================================
From: "W.Roche" <wroche@aardvark.apana.org.au>
Subject: english website
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 01:07:13 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n044
your website www.netspace.or.jp/~eifl/eifl2/html dose not work, please
advise.
=========================================================================
From: "Norman Tracy" <ntracy@galstar.com>
Subject: Re: english website
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 22:41:06 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n047
http://www.netspace.or.jp/~eifl/eifl/export/export2.htm is the URL for the
EIFL Export Home Pages. High lust factor for us audio junkies. Check out
the new pics of Ortofon SPU series cartridges. Funny with all the new-name
$1,000.00+ cartridge reviews clogging the English language mags these days
no one bothers to review these cult items.
W.Roche asked:
> your website www.netspace.or.jp/~eifl/eifl2/html dose not work, please
> advise.
Norman Tracy
Audio Crafters Guild
ntracy@galstar.com
http://galstar.com/~ntracy/ACG/
=========================================================================
From: "Bottlehead" <Bottlehead@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: english website
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 07:39:40 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n047
>
> http://www.netspace.or.jp/~eifl/eifl/export/export2.htm is the URL for
the
> EIFL Export Home Pages. High lust factor for us audio junkies. Check out
> the new pics of Ortofon SPU series cartridges. Funny with all the
new-name
> $1,000.00+ cartridge reviews clogging the English language mags these
days
> no one bothers to review these cult items.
>
Anybody know anything about that Shelter cart?
Doc B.
=========================================================================
From: Finn Hammer <f-hammer@post5.tele.dk>
Subject: Re: english website
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 22:18:26 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n047
Bottlehead wrote:
snip
> Anybody know anything about that Shelter cart?
>
> Doc B.
another wrote:
snip
> $1,000.00+ cartridge reviews clogging the English language mags these
days
> no one bothers to review these cult items.
snip
Haden Boardman does, he loves it, says it conveys the feeling of the
music, or was it the emotion? anyway, read for yourself in one of the
latest issues of HIFIWORLD where he is not at all bothered with
reviewing it
hth finn
- --
HOME OF
Tractrix Horns, Tube Amps,
Fieldcoil Loudspeakers and Computer Graphics
http://home5.inet.tele.dk/f-hammer/
=========================================================================
From: Grover Gardner <groverg@postoffice.att.net>
Subject: RE: enhanced triode
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 10:59:36 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n325
At 8:23 AM -0400 6/28/98, Robert Clark wrote:
>Hey since we are on the subject of converting pentodes to triodes. Is there
>an equally simple way of converting, say an el-34 to "enhanced triode" mode
>ala Tim de Paravicini?
This can be done. There was a thread a while back about some of the pros
and cons. Can anyone repeat the information?
Grover Gardner
groverg@postoffice.att.net
=========================================================================
From: "Daniel J. Marshall" <danmarshall@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: enhanced triode
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 11:16:33 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n325
Hi All,
While the EL34 no doubt could be used in enhanced triode mode, it
escapes me why one would want to do so since it is suitable for strapped
triode mode operation. It would seem that it would need to be operated
at a relatively high screen voltage which would make the driver
circuitry more complex and expensive compared to the driver requirements
of, say, a sweep tube operating at a much lower quiescent screen
voltage. Also, it would seem that tubes such as the EL34 exhibit much
lower screen sensitivity than, say sweep tubes, therefore, would require
a greater PP drive voltage, again (if the assumption is correct) more
problematic, especially if at a very high quiescent screen voltage.
This may imply an additional B+ supply. Haven't done it, can't say for
sure, but this would seem to be the case. The screen drive, in any
case, must be a relatively low impedance as the screen current will vary
over the drive range.
Many sweep tubes operate at 200 volts, or less, screen voltage. This
fortuitiously places the drive requirements more nearly in the center of
the B+/ground range, simplifying the external drive circuitry. In this
case, the screen could easily be driven by a direct-coupled cathode
follower with its plate at B+ and the cathode though a resistor, or
current source, to ground, or perhaps to a negative supply.
My impression of enhanced mode triode is that it is a compromise
solution to allow tubes which are limited to low screen voltage
operation, such as sweep tubes in particular, to be better optimized for
audio amplifier operation. The advantages over pentode mode are much
better linearty and considerably lower plate resistance than pentode
operation, yet not as good a real triodes, or perhaps a strapped EL34.
I was looking at the 6DQ5 a while back and it exhibits about 5,500 ohms
plate resistance in enhanced triode mode, a distinct improvement over
pentode, yet not as good as a true triode, or other triode-strapped
pentodes with screens that can be operatd at higher voltages. This high
a plate resistance would imply the requirement for at least some
negative feedback to achieve a suitable damping factor. This may also
be the case with the EL34 in enhanced triode mode, but I really do not
know for sure since I have not tried it.
Anyway, to make a long story short (I lost the long story when this
sumbitch mysteriously froze up), it seems, at first glance, that
enhanced triode mode is only a compromise solution to allow low-cost
sweep tubes, of the variety which cannot be operated at high screen
voltages, to be better optimized for audio use.
Dan Marshall
Tim Reese wrote:
>
> >>At 8:23 AM -0400 6/28/98, Robert Clark wrote:
> >>Hey since we are on the subject of converting pentodes to triodes. Is there
> >>an equally simple way of converting, say an el-34 to "enhanced triode" mode
> >>ala Tim de Paravicini?
>
> >This can be done. There was a thread a while back about some of the pros
> >and cons. Can anyone repeat the information?
>
> >Grover Gardner
> >groverg@postoffice.att.net
>
> Enhanced triode ... same as Screen Drive? I've been saving that thread
> and will place a digest on the web if I get some requests. Also look
> at Bob D's article on the Svetlana web site. cheers tr
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Tim Reese, MGH NMR Center reese@nmr.MGH.harvard.edu
=========================================================================
From: Tim Reese <reese@nmr.MGH.harvard.EDU>
Subject: RE: enhanced triode
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 11:35:51 -0400 (EDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n325
>>At 8:23 AM -0400 6/28/98, Robert Clark wrote:
>>Hey since we are on the subject of converting pentodes to triodes. Is there
>>an equally simple way of converting, say an el-34 to "enhanced triode" mode
>>ala Tim de Paravicini?
>This can be done. There was a thread a while back about some of the pros
>and cons. Can anyone repeat the information?
>Grover Gardner
>groverg@postoffice.att.net
Enhanced triode ... same as Screen Drive? I've been saving that thread
and will place a digest on the web if I get some requests. Also look
at Bob D's article on the Svetlana web site. cheers tr
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Reese, MGH NMR Center reese@nmr.MGH.harvard.edu
=========================================================================
From: Dave Cigna <cigna@phy.ohiou.edu>
Subject: Re: enhanced triode
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 16:42:04 -0400 (EDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n326
On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, Daniel J. Marshall wrote:
> My impression of enhanced mode triode is that it is a compromise
> solution to allow tubes which are limited to low screen voltage
> operation, such as sweep tubes in particular, to be better optimized for
> audio amplifier operation. The advantages over pentode mode are much
> better linearty and considerably lower plate resistance than pentode
> operation, yet not as good a real triodes, or perhaps a strapped EL34.
> I was looking at the 6DQ5 a while back and it exhibits about 5,500 ohms
> plate resistance in enhanced triode mode, a distinct improvement over
> pentode, yet not as good as a true triode, or other triode-strapped
> pentodes with screens that can be operatd at higher voltages. This high
> a plate resistance would imply the requirement for at least some
> negative feedback to achieve a suitable damping factor. This may also
> be the case with the EL34 in enhanced triode mode, but I really do not
> know for sure since I have not tried it.
Thanks for the technical info, Dan. I'd always wondered why there might be
an advantage to running enhanced triode over pentode.
The term 'enhanced triode' continues to puzzle me though. If you look at
a family of curves of plate current at different screen voltages you'll
see that they have the same shape as a family of plate current at
different grid voltages. Not at all triode-like. It seems that the tube is
still very much a pentode, but instead of fixing the screen and driving
the grid, we've fixed the grid and drive the screen. Not that this is any
reason not to try it; if it sounds good then that's ok with me.
Have anyone tried driving both the screen and the grid?
-- Dave
=========================================================================
From: SHAMSUL Bahrin Kamarudin <shamsul.BK@innosabah.com.my>
Subject: Ref:>RE: enhanced triode
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 12:32:52 +0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n326
*** Tim Reese on 28/06/1998 around 11:35 AM -0400 wrote ..........
- ->
- ->Enhanced triode ... same as Screen Drive? I've been saving that thread
- ->and will place a digest on the web if I get some requests. Also look
- ->at Bob D's article on the Svetlana web site. cheers tr
- ->----------------------------------------------------------------------
- ->Tim Reese, MGH NMR Center reese@nmr.MGH.harvard.edu
- ->
Noted.
Would appreciate it if your end can email them to the lists or directly to me.
Regards.
::-)
\\\///
/ _ _ \
(| (.)(.) |)
|--------.OOOo--()--oOOO.-- mailto:shamsul.BK@innosabah.com.my -|
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=========================================================================
From: Tim Reese <reese@nmr.MGH.harvard.EDU>
Subject: RE: enhanced triode
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 11:34:06 -0400 (EDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n329
Grover wrote
>At 8:23 AM -0400 6/28/98, Robert Clark wrote:
>>Hey since we are on the subject of converting pentodes to triodes. Is there
>>an equally simple way of converting, say an el-34 to "enhanced triode" mode
>>ala Tim de Paravicini?
>
>This can be done. There was a thread a while back about some of the pros
>and cons. Can anyone repeat the information?
I put what I have of that info in digest form at
http://www.nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/~reese/screen_digest.html
There were some more recent posts that I will add in the next day or two.
cheers tr
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Reese, MGH NMR Center reese@nmr.MGH.harvard.edu
=========================================================================
From: "Danielak, Robert M" <robert.m.danielak@lmco.com>
Subject: RE: enhanced triode
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:12:28 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n329
hi tim,
thanks for collecting all of this stuff on screen drive.
it is like a 3 month chronical.
too bad you didn't get some of jc's comments
on the subject. they were quite enlightening, too.
fyi: the final design for this amp is still on the web (sort-of):
http://www.svetlana.com/technoteNO.33.html
but you have to go to this link directly. not thru the svetlana
site. it's hidden because this amp will be featured in an upcoming
Glass Audio article. GA's policy calls for a bit of a waiting period before
the schematics can be "officially" displayed on the web....
bob.d.
> ----------
> From: Tim Reese[SMTP:reese@nmr.MGH.harvard.EDU]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 1998 11:34 AM
> To: sound@deliverator.io.com
> Subject: RE: enhanced triode
>
> Grover wrote
> >At 8:23 AM -0400 6/28/98, Robert Clark wrote:
> >>Hey since we are on the subject of converting pentodes to triodes. Is
> there
> >>an equally simple way of converting, say an el-34 to "enhanced triode"
> mode
> >>ala Tim de Paravicini?
> >
> >This can be done. There was a thread a while back about some of the pros
> >and cons. Can anyone repeat the information?
>
> I put what I have of that info in digest form at
>
> http://www.nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/~reese/screen_digest.html
>
> There were some more recent posts that I will add in the next day or two.
>
> cheers tr
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Tim Reese, MGH NMR Center reese@nmr.MGH.harvard.edu
>
=========================================================================
From: Tim Reese <reese@nmr.MGH.harvard.EDU>
Subject: RE: enhanced triode
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 15:51:08 -0400 (EDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n329
Hmmm... could be that I came in after some of jc's comments. The earliest
entry I have is 06FEB98 - I think that was after the switch to majordomo
so they may be in the "big" digest. All I did was cat most of the files
with "screen" in the subject into a file.
I can change my grinder to add the author's name to the file name, and
then look at all of jc's posts that I saved for any screen drive articles
that I may have missed.
Glad you like it - it's a snap if any other subjects like this come up that
deserve a digest.
cheers tr
>hi tim,
>
>thanks for collecting all of this stuff on screen drive.
>it is like a 3 month chronical.
>too bad you didn't get some of jc's comments
>on the subject. they were quite enlightening, too.
>
>fyi: the final design for this amp is still on the web (sort-of):
>
>http://www.svetlana.com/technoteNO.33.html
>
>but you have to go to this link directly. not thru the svetlana
>site. it's hidden because this amp will be featured in an upcoming
>Glass Audio article. GA's policy calls for a bit of a waiting period before
>the schematics can be "officially" displayed on the web....
>
>bob.d.
>
>> ----------
>> From: Tim Reese[SMTP:reese@nmr.MGH.harvard.EDU]
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 1998 11:34 AM
>> To: sound@deliverator.io.com
>> Subject: RE: enhanced triode
>>
>> Grover wrote
>> >At 8:23 AM -0400 6/28/98, Robert Clark wrote:
>> >>Hey since we are on the subject of converting pentodes to triodes. Is
>> there
>> >>an equally simple way of converting, say an el-34 to "enhanced triode"
>> mode
>> >>ala Tim de Paravicini?
>> >
>> >This can be done. There was a thread a while back about some of the pros
>> >and cons. Can anyone repeat the information?
>>
>> I put what I have of that info in digest form at
>>
>> http://www.nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/~reese/screen_digest.html
>>
>> There were some more recent posts that I will add in the next day or two.
>>
>> cheers tr
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Tim Reese, MGH NMR Center reese@nmr.MGH.harvard.edu
>>
>
=========================================================================
From: charel@cyberopp.com
Subject: ENTREPRENEURS WANTED
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:07:22 -0700 (MST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n117
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Earn $8000-$20000/month, part time from home, within 6-8 weeks.
Not MLM. No Selling. No Risk. We will train.
Call 1-800-322-6169 Ext.1642 for a 2 minute message.
Serious inquiries only please.
- --
Mihir Karia
http://www.webspan.net/~mihir
Yours For Support Towards Success
=========================================================================
From: Conrad Drake <conrad.drake@intellect.com.au>
Subject: Entry Level Hollow-state HiFi?
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 14:48:03 +0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n197
I can see that "what's an inexpensive way into SET" will become a FAQ around
here. And I'm going to ask it as well!
But with a twist - there's a Fi Valve amp maker (Valvemark) here who has a
prototype on offer at about 20% of RRP.
It _seems_ like a really good way to get into this hollowstate thingy (the
only other <$1K alternative seems to be DIY, and the asking price seems to
be about the same as the RRP on the OPTs)
I had a longish chat with the owner/designer & was sent a small stack of
information on their product range.
I think the specs of the unit on offer are as follows :
PL519 (40KG6) outputs switchable as either 10W SET, 30W "partial triode"
Claiming 20-65Khz 3db points, 2 x 47,000 uF + 10 H power supply. 250W OPT
There are two input valves - ECC82 & 6CG7 (I think) for a total of 3 per
channel
(It seems the OP valves are pentodes, rather than triodes)
Does anyone have any comments on this set of specs? I realise that
specifications != sound,
but does this component list seem like a reasonable starting point?
FETs & Bipolars I know (a little) about, but this glow-in-the-dark stuff is
all new to me
So any comments would be very welcome
Thanks again
Conrad Drake
(Valvemark do passive pre-amps, monoblocks and phono preamps as well)
=========================================================================
From: "Johannes S. Chiu" <jschiu@ctr.columbia.edu>
Subject: Equalizer pre-amp project (long)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:26:35 -0500 (EST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n136
Hi everyone,
I while ago, I have been pondering about the possibility of making a
tube version of the Cello Palette pre-amplifier, i.e. a line stage
that would have a 6 band equalizer. Having done some preliminary
research, it seems possible to have a relatively simple design and
most of all not sacrifice sound quality too much. At this point, I
would like to share my finding with everyone, in the hopes that the
knowledge base here would take me further, while at the same time
testing the level of interest here for such a project. I believe this
would be a really nice project that requires group interaction and
cooperation, since the level of complexity exceeds that of a SE amp.
So, here's what I have so far:
The equalizer we want would be similar to a graphic equalizer (each
knob adjusts a particular frequency range), as opposed to a parametric
equalizer. The shape of these filters resemble a second order resonant
circuit, which is different from your usual active crossover, n-th
order Butterworth/Bessel filters. The graphic equalizers fall into two
main categories, const-Q vs. non-const-Q, which determines whether the
shape of the filter changes with the boost/cut level. Let's go into
each one of them in more detail:
(1) non-const-Q: There is a paper in the AES journal (june 83) that
analyzes these kind of graphic filters. Of the six described, the two
most common implemented are:
(i) Bandpass filters in paralled, which are then summed together. The
cut/boost is implemented by changing the shape of the filter. I don't
believe this topology is suitable, because the signal has to pass
through the filters all the time, even at the flat setting. This would
require all filters to be of the highest quality.
(ii) A T-network sitting between the + and - terminals of a diff amp
strapped with feedback. R. Berklund has a one page article of such a
circuit in Glass Audio (96?). The T-network is adjusted to provide a
shunt impedance dip to either terminal. For cut levels, the dip occurs
at the + terminal, hence reducing the input signal. For boost level,
the dip is switched to the - terminal, hence lowering the overall
feedback of the gain stage. Because of this, I don't think this topology
is suitable either, since the diff amp has to be strapped for unity gain at
its flat setting.
The other toplogies in the paper all require fancy overall feedback of
some kind to make things work.
(2) const-Q: Starting from the 80s, a new breed of equalizer appeared.
The main incentive was to to get rid of adjacent band interference in
1/3 octave equalizers. D. Bohn had an article in the AES journal (Sept
86). An anbridged version appears on www.rane.com (rane note 101), a
company he now works for. The web page also contains schematics, of
which the model G-15 is probably easiest to understand. This topology
seems to be ideal. So, let me describe it in more detail. For simplictiy,
I will only show one band. You'll have to imagine the rest:
+ ----- + -----
in ---| A |--------------------------------------| D |----- out
-| ----- | +| -----
| ----- |
| | BP| |
| ----- |
| ----- | ----- |
------| C |--------------------| B |--------
----- -----
Here, A and D are gain stages, BP is the bandpass filter, and C and B
and gain stages that determines the cut/boost. The transfer function
will then be AD*(1/1+C*Bp) for cut and AD*(1+B*Bp) for boost. What is
so elegant here is that at the flat setting, C=B=0 and the band pass
filter is essentially doing nothing to the signal, AND there is no
overall feedback. This means, if we do a careful design for block A
and D, we have at least a high quality pre-amp at the flat setting.
Any changes thereafter may change the signal additively, assuming
filters and feedback are bad, i.e. worse sound would be at maximum
cut/boost, which should be seldom required. The bandpass filters can
be implemented using LCR resonant tanks (huge inductors), gyrators
(more tubes), or op-amps (more SS). Also note that the filter is fixed
(shape does not change), and the cut/boost level is essentially
adjusted by C and B. Gain blocks A and D will have to be a bit more
complicated compared to your usual pre-amp, because A has to be able
to drive all BPs and both blocks have to allow summing of
signals. For those who absolutely abhorr feedback, let me say that it
is possible to have both the boost and cut as feed-forward loops.
The only disadvantage in it is that the filter shape will be different
for cut/boost (cut transfer function will be AD*(1-C*Bp). In general,
I don't think feedback is a bad thing here, considering that only the
freq. band in question gets fed back.
So, if this kind of project interests you, let me know:
(1) if you'd like to participate actively.
(2) if you want to b