Sound Practices Mailing List Files - Volume 1
=========================================================================
From: Thomas Dunker <dunker@invalid.ed.unit.no>
Subject: (E180F vs E810F) + Tek 1L5
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 20:21:38 +0200 (MET DST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n329
On Wed, 1 Jul 1998, Johari Yip wrote:
> ----------
> > From: T. Loesch <ezee_e@hotmail.com>
> > To: hfyip@pacific.net.sg; dunker@invalid.ed.unit.no
> > Cc: sound@deliverator.io.com; groverg@postoffice.att.net
> > Subject: Re: Cathode follower drive
> > Date: Tuesday, June 30, 1998 11:11 PM
>
> > >There's also a bunch of nice pentodes that turn into high-gm
> > >wonder-triodes when triode wired, one example being the
> > >7788/E810F that Grego mentioned in his SP article.
> >
> > Has anyone actually got a Data-Sheet around for the E810F? I have a few
> > in my Valves Box....
>
> Should it be E180F instead of E810F? (great tube to use for a single tube
> phono stage too).
No, the E180F is a different tube. An equivalent to the E180F is 6688.
E810F is the same as the US type 7788. E180F has lower max plate
dissipation at 3W (5W for E810F). The E810F also has much higher
transconductance (50mA/V nom. at 35mA plate current) versus E180F
(16.5mA/V at 13mA plate current). Also, E810F/7788 is rated for a
maximum cathode current of 50mA (10,000 hours life) whereas the
max. cathode current of E180F/6688 is only 25mA.
BTW, the E186F/7737 is practically identical to E180F/6688,
apart from slight differences in max. screen dissipation, max. bulb
temperature and other minor things. The plate curves (pentode) for
both these tubes are identical in my Philips manual.
I have heard rumors that these tubes can be quite microphonic, so
I'm not sure just how great they are for apps. like high gain phono
stages. But the high transconductance and resulting low noise resistance
looks appealing for such applications.
Oh, and while I'm at it, as of today I am the happy owner of the elusive
(?) Tektronix 1L5 spectrum analyzer plugin that I will be using in my
547 scope. Unfortunately, after about an hour of learning as much as
possible about the 1L5, the EHT power supply of the 547 suddenly died
and I was left with repair duty instead of spectrum analysis. Ted Riesz
mentioned that the 6AU5 in the oscillator of the EHT supply of the 547
is failure-prone, and I am fairly sure that mine just failed. This supply
has a tricky feedback regulator that makes it just about impossible to
find out where the problem is actually at. I'll try to find a replacement
6AU5 tomorrow to get back in business.
Anyhow, I did query the list members about the specs of the 1L5 (same as
3L5, 7L5 etc...??) and its usefulness for audio measurements etc without
getting any answers. I know that there's more people out there looking for
these units, so I thought I'd share some of the info with you. The
Center Frequency Range is 50Hz-990kHz, making it useful for most kinds of
audio measurements. The Dispersion (Hz/cm) can be set in steps from 10Hz
to 100kHz. The input attenuator can be set in 22 steps from 100V/cm down
to 1mV/cm. The vertical display can be set for linear or logarithmic,
and the unit has ">60dB" dynamic range (noise level =<5 microvolts).
The useful sweep rates are low (20ms recommended) and the sweep output
of the scope is applied to the sweep input terminal of the 1L5. The low
sweep rate makes the display a bit tiring to watch, but I tried coupling
the vertical output of the 547 to two different storage scope and this
works fairly good, except that I get a lot of overshoot (the display on
the 547 looks great though). I got pretty spectra with square and triangle
signals applied to the 1L5, and depending on the test frequency,
dispersion settings etc. I could view harmonics up to the 20th and beyond.
Unfortunately, the scope died before I could perform any real world
measurements, but I think "this is the beginning of a beautiful
friendship". Once I get the scope running again, I will try using the
1L5 in conjunction with an old HP distortion analyzer that notches out
the fundamental.
And I'd still love to hear from people who've been using this unit
or anything similar, on good setups, hints etc.
Tom D.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
_/\_ Thomas Dunker \ The Horn Speaker Home Page:
/ \ P.O.Box 2811 \ http://invalid.ed.ntnu.no/~dunker/horns.html
| | 7002 Trondheim \
| | NORWAY \--\ "Those with head above water
\____/ dunker@omegav.ntnu.no \ see only the tip of the iceberg"
|||| phone (+47)73916898 \ (Gene Dalby)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
From: "Johari Yip" <hfyip@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: (E180F vs E810F) + Tek 1L5
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 08:27:25 +0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n330
- ----------
> From: Thomas Dunker <dunker@invalid.ed.unit.no>
> To: Johari Yip <hfyip@pacific.net.sg>
> Cc: T. Loesch <ezee_e@hotmail.com>; sound@deliverator.io.com;
groverg@postoffice.att.net
> Subject: (E180F vs E810F) + Tek 1L5
> Date: Thursday, July 02, 1998 2:21 AM
> > Should it be E180F instead of E810F? (great tube to use for a single
tube
> > phono stage too).
>
> No, the E180F is a different tube. An equivalent to the E180F is 6688.
> E810F is the same as the US type 7788. E180F has lower max plate
> dissipation at 3W (5W for E810F). The E810F also has much higher
> transconductance (50mA/V nom. at 35mA plate current) versus E180F
> (16.5mA/V at 13mA plate current). Also, E810F/7788 is rated for a
> maximum cathode current of 50mA (10,000 hours life) whereas the
> max. cathode current of E180F/6688 is only 25mA.
> BTW, the E186F/7737 is practically identical to E180F/6688,
> apart from slight differences in max. screen dissipation, max. bulb
> temperature and other minor things. The plate curves (pentode) for
> both these tubes are identical in my Philips manual.
> I have heard rumors that these tubes can be quite microphonic, so
> I'm not sure just how great they are for apps. like high gain phono
> stages. But the high transconductance and resulting low noise resistance
> looks appealing for such applications.
<snip>
Tom
Thanks for this very informative post. Guess I've mistaken the 7788 for the
6688.
Just curious. How much gain or db can I get from a single E810F or E180F if
used in a single tube phonostage? Would it be sufficient for low MC
cartridges (0.3mV)?
TIA
Johari
=========================================================================
From: Thomas Dunker <dunker@invalid.ed.unit.no>
Subject: Re: (E180F vs E810F) + Tek 1L5
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 13:11:55 +0200 (MET DST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n330
On Thu, 2 Jul 1998, Johari Yip wrote:
> Thanks for this very informative post. Guess I've mistaken the 7788 for the
> 6688.
> Just curious. How much gain or db can I get from a single E810F or E180F if
> used in a single tube phonostage? Would it be sufficient for low MC
> cartridges (0.3mV)?
Used as a triode or a pentode?
The E180F/6688 has a mu of about 50, ri=2.4K, gm=21mA/V when triode
connected (screen wired to plate), 160V/16.5mA on the plate.
The characteristics of the triode wired E810F/7788 would have to be
derived from the curves...but the mu could be made roughly the same
as for the 6688/E180F, but with higher gm and lower ri. There's so
many variables. The same tubes do of course have tons of gain when used
as pentodes, and the equivalent noise resistance of the 7788 is still way
low at 110 ohms.
Tom D.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
_/\_ Thomas Dunker \ The Horn Speaker Home Page:
/ \ P.O.Box 2811 \ http://invalid.ed.ntnu.no/~dunker/horns.html
| | 7002 Trondheim \
| | NORWAY \--\ "Those with head above water
\____/ dunker@omegav.ntnu.no \ see only the tip of the iceberg"
|||| phone (+47)73916898 \ (Gene Dalby)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
From: "Johari Yip" <hfyip@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: (E180F vs E810F) + Tek 1L5
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 13:44:12 +0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n330
- ----------
> From: Thomas Dunker <dunker@invalid.ed.unit.no>
> To: Johari Yip <hfyip@pacific.net.sg>
> Cc: T. Loesch <ezee_e@hotmail.com>; sound@deliverator.io.com;
groverg@postoffice.att.net
> Subject: (E180F vs E810F) + Tek 1L5
> Date: Thursday, July 02, 1998 2:21 AM
> I have heard rumors that these tubes can be quite microphonic, so
> I'm not sure just how great they are for apps. like high gain phono
> stages. But the high transconductance and resulting low noise resistance
> looks appealing for such applications.
Being a pentode, I think should be less prone to microphonics as compared
to a triode.
But then again, microphonics might not be a "bad ill" after all if it's not
too bad.
Johari
=========================================================================
From: "Johari Yip" <hfyip@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: (E180F vs E810F) + Tek 1L5
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 22:05:41 +0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n330
> Used as a triode or a pentode?
> The E180F/6688 has a mu of about 50, ri=2.4K, gm=21mA/V when triode
> connected (screen wired to plate), 160V/16.5mA on the plate.
> The characteristics of the triode wired E810F/7788 would have to be
> derived from the curves...but the mu could be made roughly the same
> as for the 6688/E180F, but with higher gm and lower ri. There's so
> many variables. The same tubes do of course have tons of gain when used
> as pentodes, and the equivalent noise resistance of the 7788 is still way
> low at 110 ohms.
Used as a pentode.
=========================================================================
From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Torbj=F8rn_Lien?=" <mdrivekl@online.no>
Subject: E182CC operating point
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 09:17:51 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n533
Hi all,-
I remember vaguely that someone on this list wanted to
use the E182CC as driver tube. Thats a wise decision.
One good operating point for this tube, [judged by a
single species only!!] is:
140V@30mA.
Alittle less current if you get power microphony, but
thats not likely.
I use my tube-tester, the AVO VCM163, to check out
working-points, if tube data is not at hand. Reading
transconductanse while dialing in different anode
voltages, keeping current constant.
The E182CC seems to have quite constant gm when current
is constant,U varying between 90 to 190 volts, gm dropping
just noticeably at either end.
Torbjoern Lien
>
>
>
>
>
=========================================================================
From: Finn Hammer <f-hammer@post5.tele.dk>
Subject: E55L curves
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 20:09:05 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n393
An-shyang Chu wrote:
>
> Hi Joes,
>
> Now we have the 7788 curves, does anyone have the curves/specs for the 8233
> (E55L) in triode mode??
>
> Best regards,
>
> hopper
Shure:
http://home5.inet.tele.dk/f-hammer/E55L.GIF
Finn
- --
HOME OF
Tractrix Horns, Tube Amps,
Fieldcoil Loudspeakers and Computer Graphics
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Tractrix Horns, Tube Amps,
Fieldcoil Loudspeakers and Computer Graphics
http://home5.inet.tele.dk/f-hammer/
=========================================================================
From: Simon Busbridge <scb2@saturn.bton.ac.uk>
Subject: E80F
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:40:37 +0100 (BST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n415
Hi Folks,
Does anyone know if this is a special quality EF80? I'm restoring an old
Pye AM/FM tuner. Not exactly hi-fi I know, but fun as the long winter
nights approach...
TIA
Simon
Dr Simon Busbridge
Department of Mechanical and Manufacturing Engineering
University of Brighton
Lewes Road
Moulsecoomb
Brighton BN2 4GJ
UNITED KINGDOM
Tel: 0044 (0)1273 642542
Fax: 0044 (0)1273 642327
e-mail: s.c.busbridge@bton.ac.uk, scbusbridge@hotmail.com
=========================================================================
From: Cuno Snoeren <c.snoeren@tip.nl>
Subject: Re: E80F
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 22:59:51 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n416
> Simon Busbridge wrote:
>
> Hi Folks,
>
> Does anyone know if this is a special quality EF80?
Yes it is normally a reliable, ruggedized and long life version.
And the E80F is a long life and rugged construction version, also
available as the 6084 or CV2729.
Cuno
c.snoeren@tip.nl
http://www.ariel.club.tip.nl
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: E80F
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 00:19:15 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n416
At 22:59 8-9-98 +0200, Cuno Snoeren wrote:
>> Simon Busbridge wrote:
>>
>> Hi Folks,
>>
>> Does anyone know if this is a special quality EF80?
Yes, E80F differs from EF80 !
E80F is more or less similar to EF856, but sounds better !
Guido
>Yes it is normally a reliable, ruggedized and long life version.
>And the E80F is a long life and rugged construction version, also
>available as the 6084 or CV2729.
>
>Cuno
>c.snoeren@tip.nl
>http://www.ariel.club.tip.nl
>
>
=========================================================================
From: Mattijs de Vries <mdevries@avvt.com>
Subject: Re: E80F
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 00:29:27 +0000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n416
Hello,
>Yes, E80F differs from EF80 !
Indeed they do, for comparison (capacitances also differ, but I am lazy
today ;)):
EF80 E80F
Va 250 250
Vg1 -3.5 -2
Vg2 250 100
Ia 10 3
s 6.8 1.85
mu(triode) 50 25
Rplate 650 1k5
Ia-max 15 9
Pa-max 2.5 1.3
Ig2-max 0.7 0.4
Vg2-max 300 200
The E80F makes an excellent replacement for the EF86's used in the Quad II
amps by the way, an absolute recommendation!
Bye,
_______
| _____ | MachMat, Mattijs de Vries
/ | | \ Top-Fi audio equipment, Tube sales
| | ||| | | Distributor AVVT Benelux
| | ||| | | ------------------------------------------------
| | ||| | | E-mail : MdeVries@AVVT.COM (Private)
| | ||| | | MachMat@AVVT.COM (Business)
| |_____| | URL : HTTP://WWW.AVVT.COM/machmat/
\ ||| / Adress : Campuslaan 41-214, 7522 NG, Enschede
|/_|_\| Country : The Netherlands, Europe
| | Phone : 0031-53-4895091, Fax : 0031-53-4357234
|_____| ------------------------------------------------
|| || Designing is the art of making compromises.
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: E80F
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 18:22:24 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n417
At 00:29 9-9-98 +0000, Mattijs de Vries wrote:
>Hello,
>
>>Yes, E80F differs from EF80 !
>
>Indeed they do, for comparison (capacitances also differ, but I am lazy
>today ;)):
>
> EF80 E80F
>
>Va 250 250
>Vg1 -3.5 -2
>Vg2 250 100
>Ia 10 3
>s 6.8 1.85
>mu(triode) 50 25
>Rplate 650 1k5
>Ia-max 15 9
>Pa-max 2.5 1.3
>Ig2-max 0.7 0.4
>Vg2-max 300 200
>
>The E80F makes an excellent replacement for the EF86's used in the Quad II
>amps by the way, an absolute recommendation!
That is exactly the place were I put them ! worth doing so !
Guido
>Bye,
> _______
> | _____ | MachMat, Mattijs de Vries
>/ | | \ Top-Fi audio equipment, Tube sales
>| | ||| | | Distributor AVVT Benelux
>| | ||| | | ------------------------------------------------
>| | ||| | | E-mail : MdeVries@AVVT.COM (Private)
>| | ||| | | MachMat@AVVT.COM (Business)
>| |_____| | URL : HTTP://WWW.AVVT.COM/machmat/
> \ ||| / Adress : Campuslaan 41-214, 7522 NG, Enschede
> |/_|_\| Country : The Netherlands, Europe
> | | Phone : 0031-53-4895091, Fax : 0031-53-4357234
> |_____| ------------------------------------------------
> || || Designing is the art of making compromises.
>
>
=========================================================================
From: Darrell Whitfield <dwhitf@swbell.net>
Subject: E810F/7788 data?
Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 10:25:59 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n209
Can any one tell me where I can find data (curves) on this tube?
I was told it was on the net and one of you guys might now.
Thanks in advance!
Darrell
=========================================================================
From: Thomas Dunker <dunker@invalid.ed.unit.no>
Subject: Re: E810F/7788 data?
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 10:22:18 +0100 (MET)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n212
On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Darrell Whitfield wrote:
> Can any one tell me where I can find data (curves) on this tube?
> I was told it was on the net and one of you guys might now.
> Thanks in advance!
I have curves and specs on this tube, send me your mail address
and I'll have it copied and mailed to you.
Tom D.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
_/\_ Thomas Dunker \ The Horn Speaker Home Page:
/ \ P.O.Box 2811 \ http://invalid.ed.unit.no/~dunker/horns.html
| | 7002 Trondheim \
| | NORWAY \------\ "Those with head above water
\____/ dunker@invalid.ed.unit.no \ see only the tip of the iceberg"
|||| phone (+47)73916898 \ (Gene Dalby)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
From: Scott Grammer <tubedude@cdc.net>
Subject: E810F Specs Posted
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 11:29:05 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n391
Folks:
I got the E810F specs from Darrell Whitfield in the snailmail yesterday,
and I have scanned and posted them. You can find them at:
http://www.cdc.net/~tubedude/tubespec.html
Cheers!
S.G.
- --
Check out TubeDude's Webpage of Vacuum Tube Lore!
http://www.cdc.net/~tubedude/
Now with Lemon Scented Borax!
=========================================================================
From: An-shyang Chu <achu@sandia.gov>
Subject: Re: E810F Specs Posted
Date: 17 Aug 1998 09:21:56 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n392
Hi Joes,
Now we have the 7788 curves, does anyone have the curves/specs for the 8233
(E55L) in triode mode??
Best regards,
hopper
_______________________________________________________________________________
Subject: E810F Specs Posted
From: tubedude@cdc.net at hubsmtp
Date: 8/16/98 9:43 AM
Folks:
I got the E810F specs from Darrell Whitfield in the snailmail yesterday,
and I have scanned and posted them. You can find them at:
http://www.cdc.net/~tubedude/tubespec.html
Cheers!
S.G.
- --
Check out TubeDude's Webpage of Vacuum Tube Lore!
http://www.cdc.net/~tubedude/
Now with Lemon Scented Borax!
=========================================================================
From: Scott Grammer <tubedude@cdc.net>
Subject: Re: E810F Specs Posted
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 19:08:56 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n393
Folks:
Hopper reminded me that Mac users can't easily deal with .zip files such as I
posted the E810F files in. For those who need it, please email me privately and I
will be happy to email you the files as .gif, .jpeg, .tiff, or prety much
.whatever. Sorry, I can't do .pdf, not until I buy the software. Can you say $$$?
Cheers!
S.G.
- --
Check out TubeDude's Webpage of Vacuum Tube Lore!
http://www.cdc.net/~tubedude/
Now with Lemon Scented Borax!
=========================================================================
From: Grover Gardner <groverg@postoffice.att.net>
Subject: Re: E810F Specs Posted
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 02:38:26 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n394
At 7:08 PM -0400 8/17/98, Scott Grammer wrote:
>Folks:
>Hopper reminded me that Mac users can't easily deal with .zip files such as I
>posted the E810F files in. For those who need it, please email me
>privately and I
>will be happy to email you the files as .gif, .jpeg, .tiff, or prety much
>.whatever. Sorry, I can't do .pdf, not until I buy the software. Can you
>say $$$?
Shouldn't be a problem--download shareware ZipIt for Macs and unpack the
file. My Mac also has EasyOpen or some other translation thing, but I
think most Macs do...
Grover Gardner
groverg@postoffice.att.net
=========================================================================
From: Simon Busbridge <S.C.Busbridge@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: E810F Specs Posted
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 13:36:28 +0100 (BST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n394
Scott,
Thanks for doing it - whatever format you use - data is always
appreciated.
Best wishes
Simon
Dr Simon Busbridge
Department of Mechanical and Manufacturing Engineering
University of Brighton
Lewes Road
Moulsecoomb
Brighton BN2 4GJ
UNITED KINGDOM
Tel: 0044 (0)1273 642542
Fax: 0044 (0)1273 642327
e-mail: s.c.busbridge@bton.ac.uk
On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, Scott Grammer wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Folks:
> Hopper reminded me that Mac users can't easily deal with .zip files such as I
> posted the E810F files in. For those who need it, please email me privately and I
> will be happy to email you the files as .gif, .jpeg, .tiff, or prety much
> .whatever. Sorry, I can't do .pdf, not until I buy the software. Can you say $$$?
>
>
> Cheers!
> S.G.
>
> --
> Check out TubeDude's Webpage of Vacuum Tube Lore!
> http://www.cdc.net/~tubedude/
> Now with Lemon Scented Borax!
>
>
>
=========================================================================
From: Darrell Whitfield <dwhitf@swbell.net>
Subject: Re: E810F Specs Posted
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 22:21:49 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n395
Yes I've said it privately, thanks Scott for scanning the pages for me and helping me
give something back to the guys on Joenet who have been very nice to this newbie.Also
for cleaning up the pages a bit (edges ,etc). good job.
Darrell
Simon Busbridge wrote:
> Scott,
>
> Thanks for doing it - whatever format you use - data is always
> appreciated.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Simon
>
> Dr Simon Busbridge
> Department of Mechanical and Manufacturing Engineering
> University of Brighton
> Lewes Road
> Moulsecoomb
> Brighton BN2 4GJ
> UNITED KINGDOM
>
> Tel: 0044 (0)1273 642542
> Fax: 0044 (0)1273 642327
> e-mail: s.c.busbridge@bton.ac.uk
>
> On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, Scott Grammer wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Folks:
> > Hopper reminded me that Mac users can't easily deal with .zip files such as I
> > posted the E810F files in. For those who need it, please email me privately and I
> > will be happy to email you the files as .gif, .jpeg, .tiff, or prety much
> > .whatever. Sorry, I can't do .pdf, not until I buy the software. Can you say $$$?
> >
> >
> > Cheers!
> > S.G.
> >
> > --
> > Check out TubeDude's Webpage of Vacuum Tube Lore!
> > http://www.cdc.net/~tubedude/
> > Now with Lemon Scented Borax!
> >
> >
> >
=========================================================================
From: Scott Grammer <tubedude@cdc.net>
Subject: Re: E810F Specs Posted
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 06:10:58 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n395
Darrell Whitfield wrote:
> Yes I've said it privately, thanks Scott for scanning the pages for me and helping me
> give something back to the guys on Joenet who have been very nice to this newbie.Also
> for cleaning up the pages a bit (edges ,etc). good job.
>
> Darrell
>
No sweat!
S.G.
- --
Check out TubeDude's Webpage of Vacuum Tube Lore!
http://www.cdc.net/~tubedude/
Now with Lemon Scented Borax!
=========================================================================
From: Keiko Honjo <KHONJO@IMF.ORG>
Subject: E92CC
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:00:59 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n018
Hi everyone!
I have some Telefunken E92CC in original boxes. Does anybody know
what is this tube for? My guess is that this is the tube used in Telefunken
amp V69a but not quite sure.
Thanks!
Keiko Honjo
khonjo@imf.org
=========================================================================
From: Guido Tent <gtent@ehv.sc.philips.com>
Subject: Re: E92CC
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 08:50:16 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n019
At 11:00 10-09-97 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi everyone!
>
>I have some Telefunken E92CC in original boxes. Does anybody know
>what is this tube for?
As far as I know it's a tube designed for computers ! (1 bit memory cell
with one double triode). I should have the curves at home, shall have a look
Guido
>My guess is that this is the tube used in Telefunken
>amp V69a but not quite sure.
>Thanks!
>
>Keiko Honjo
>khonjo@imf.org
>
>
" 640K ought to be enough for anybody" , Bill Gates, 1981
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed herin are my personal ones and do not in
any way reflect opinions or policies of my employer.
Guido Tent
Engineer Electro Magnetic Compatibility
Philips Semiconductors Systems Laboratory Eindhoven (PS-SLE)
Building BE303, (Hurksestraat 19)
P.O.Box 218, 5600MD Eindhoven, The Netherlands
Phone: +31-40-27 24553
fax : +31-40-27 22764
- - Let's make things better ! -
E-mail: guido.tent@ehv. sc.philips.com
Seri : gtent@nlsce1
=========================================================================
From: Rimmer deVries <rdevries@ameritech.net>
Subject: Re: EAR 834p
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 23:13:28 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n303
Randy:
let me know how your mods to the EAR 834p work out, I've had an EAR
phono box for the past 2 years and like it though it is not the end all
phono stage. I find very little differnece between swaping tubes: i'v
used mullard 12AX7, Tele smoothe plate and ribbed plate, now using GE
JAN 5751 green label which sound great a little crisper than the tele
smooth plates.
I was just looking at the 76 line stage by Bruce Berman in SP 13. it
looks very interesting about 75% power supply, 15% extra power supply
filter and the rest is the audio circuit. it should be good but heavy.
Does anyone have experience with this type of second "LC" filtering on
the audio chassis? Is this second stage really necessary as opposed to
getting the B+ to the operting voltage in the separate power supply?
Also does anyone have experience running AC vs DC on the 76 or 37
filiments?
Rimmer
Rhthatcher@ra.rockwell.com wrote:
>
> about 2 years ago i built a kit from randy fay. it uses a 6dj8/6922 into a
> el84 CF with a 12ay7 current source.
> http://k2.cwru.edu/~rht3/ls.htm has a little about it.
> i have black gates, hovland coupling caps, a rubicon and axon in the ps,
> and caddock resistors in mine. the only
> wire is about 2 inches of silver wire, the rest of the signal goes through
> the few components in the thing.
> it's cheap to build, and it should stomp things like sonic frontiers,
> melos, krell, etc...
>
> Randy's a great guy, he's helped me on the phone while fixing and tweaking
> and generally
> put up with a lot of my newbie crap. I may build his design with the 5687
> if i get around to calling him and
> get it. I don't know what tranny he has for that, but i may have something
> that will do. before the 5687 he
> was doing a 12bh7 kit. bottom line, a little money goes a LONG way with
> randy fay's designs. i say
> go for it! if you don't like it you're out about the same cash as a pair
> of cheap boutique interconnects.
>
> i may breadboard a 5687 preamp and a 76 preamp and try them. anyone here
> build the linestage
> in SP 13? how does it sound? anyone have the iron for it? i have a spare
> 250-0-250, a 300V, and a
> 550-0-550 (quite big for a preamp, tho), but nothing too close for that
> preamp. i may have a choke
> or 2 from the SJS phono stage i'm tearing up soon.
>
> I've decided to go with the EAR 834P. I can't try to find the noise for
> months on end and NOT
> enjoy my vinyl. i've been vinyl starved since january and i'm fed up.
> projects are fun and all, but the
> music is more important to me! I've been borrowing a friend's EAR, and it
> is pretty nice. I figure i'll drop
> a few Tele's i have into it, maybe use some hovlands in there, maybe drop
> in some freds (if i can fit 'em!)
> and try that. got the thing for 1/3 off as a demo... hope it shows up
> soon as i have to return my friend's in the
> morning!
>
> Anyone have (2) 0.15uF or (2) 1.0uF Hovland's they'd sell me?
>
> -randy thatcher (not fay)
>
> 2) Randy Fay has a very simple design that uses one 5687. He sells
> everything you need to build minus chassis, jacks, and switches for $125.
> Kit includes a NOS
> military PT. His number is (519) 735-2462. He only runs the tube at 85V
> @ 8 ma. Gain is about 12. Go to deja news and do a search for his last
> post in r.a.m.
> 2/15/98 for more detail on the design (try "5687 linestage").
=========================================================================
From: Paul Joppa <pdj@ISDNseattle.net>
Subject: Re: Ear break-in (was Lowther then ..@VSAC)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 17:23:03 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n467
Joes-
My own experience is consistent with the ear breakin idea. I've always
admired the dynamics of horns, and been in love with the idea of them,
but I always heard some high-frequency roughness which I find
irritating. Couldn't really imagine living with one. But I had these
parts, see, so I put together a system for "just temporary" - JBLs,
2220's crossed at 800 to 2441's on the short horns with the small
slant-plate lens. Small soggy cabinet. Nothing high-end in the JoeList
sense, but just an experiment, right? Fired it up with great hopes,
but sure enough the highs grated on my ears. Spent several weeks
fiddling with the L-pad on the tweeters, never finding a satisfactory
compromise.
Fortunately I was too lazy/busy with other things so it stayed in the
living room for several months. I gradually got used to it, and found
the high-frequency screech (and the midband honk) less irritating - in
fact, I grew to like the sound more and more. I find now that I not
only enjoy them, I like John's Exemplars too, and can enjoy them for
hours. Finally, horns make sense to me! Maybe some day I'll even be
able to tolerate A-7's! :^)
I conclude that there are some faults to which one can become
accustomed, and others which grow more and more irritating with time.
I'll take the former over the latter any day.
- -Paul Joppa
=========================================================================
From: Joe Pledger <doodle@navicom.com>
Subject: Re: Ear break-in (was Lowther then ..@VSAC)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 20:20:31 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n467
Paul Joppa wrote:
>
> Joes-
>
> My own experience is consistent with the ear breakin idea. I've always
> admired the dynamics of horns, and been in love with the idea of them,
> but I always heard some high-frequency roughness which I find
> irritating. Couldn't really imagine living with one. But I had these
> parts, see, so I put together a system for "just temporary" - JBLs,
> 2220's crossed at 800 to 2441's on the short horns with the small
> slant-plate lens. Small soggy cabinet. Nothing high-end in the JoeList
> sense, but just an experiment, right? Fired it up with great hopes,
> but sure enough the highs grated on my ears. Spent several weeks
> fiddling with the L-pad on the tweeters, never finding a satisfactory
> compromise.
>
> Fortunately I was too lazy/busy with other things so it stayed in the
> living room for several months. I gradually got used to it, and found
> the high-frequency screech (and the midband honk) less irritating - in
> fact, I grew to like the sound more and more. I find now that I not
> only enjoy them, I like John's Exemplars too, and can enjoy them for
> hours. Finally, horns make sense to me! Maybe some day I'll even be
> able to tolerate A-7's! :^)
>
> I conclude that there are some faults to which one can become
> accustomed, and others which grow more and more irritating with time.
> I'll take the former over the latter any day.
>
> -Paul Joppa
Just wondering if anyone has explored the break-in curves? Let me
explain my thinking. Nothing is constant ( in this field at least).
So, if there is a break-in slope, how about the break-down slope?
I admit, I never tracked my old Wharfedales, because the foam surround
disolved while they were in storage! I have noticed that my ears are on
a break-down curve ( think they were broken in long ago...). So is there
an optimum point perhaps a millisecond or two, where the speakers are
"broken in" and then everything starts downhill (slowly) after that?
Sorry,
Joe Pledger
=========================================================================
From: "Le Cleac'h J.-M." <lecleach@cgi.ensmp.fr>
Subject: ear distortion (was C37-The FAQ's)
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:14:25 +0100 (MET)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n176
- --=====================_886162015==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 16:10 29/01/1998 -0600, you wrote:
>>Aha! You think that I am saying something about whether or not the
>>application of the glop works or, indeed, does anything. I am not. I
>>termed as 'ridiculous' a specific statement about the operation of
>>auditory transduction. For this process, there is much information and
>>the proposition offered is completely unfounded and at odds with present
>>data.
>So what you are saying is that all the "data" shows that sound that reaches
>the nerve inside the ear, after having gone through the mechanical parts
>of the ear is *completely* identical to the original sound before it entered
>the ear?
Hello,
Distortion created by our ear is a documented subject.
IMHO the main relevance for them is contained in the graph due to Neumann,
Stephen and Davis.
I scanned the graph and as it is only 10 koctets, I send it in attachment to
the whole list. (eardist.gif)
Hope this will clarify the present discussion.
Best regards,
Jean-Michel Le Cleac'h, Paris, France
- --=====================_886162015==_
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- --=====================_886162015==_--
=========================================================================
From: Info@visionunl.com
Subject: Earn FREE Gasoline and Long Distance !
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 02:45:40 -0600 (CST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n145
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******************************************************************
******************************************************************
TO BE REMOVED FROM OUR MAILING LIST, TYPE: Intrepid@ascella.net in
the (TO:) area and (REMOVE) in the subject area of a new E-mail
and send.
******************************************************************
=========================================================================
From: "Doc B." <bottlehead@silverlink.net>
Subject: ear openers at the VALVE meeting
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 10:55:40 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n268
Along with the ME2s I mention in another post, there were some other real
surprises at the meeting yesterday.
Tucker and I shot out several iterations of our soon to be released eXtreme
Audio parafeed preamp, and we think we have settled on the final details.
With the first beta unit going to LynnO. More info to come, with some
discretion, we ain't givin' away any secrets on this puppy. It's good,
really good, and *dead* quiet.
John Ott once again reminded us that homebrew can look far nicer than the
best commercial gear, as he demo'd a pair of 2 way 94 dB speaks based on a
Hi-Fi World design. The cabinets were stunning, with a beautiful curving
line separating the two types of wood used for the front baffle. They were
made to complement his amp, which was the one we showed on the VSAC homepage
last year.
The biggest surprise at the meeting still has me reeling.
Ed Fallon brought in a very cool 80 lb. stereo breadboard amp which used the
Valve Art VA5300Bs.
Holy s**t! That is a fabulous tube.
Ed had used the new big Hammond outputs, which sounded pretty OK, good bass,
a little closed off, but they were very green. We did a "field conversion"
to parafeed, using the Hammond trans primaries (46H) as the retard coils,
and a pair of Pinstripe trannies and 6 mfd oil caps.
The parafeed let the 5300s show what they could do, really opened up and
focused the sound, so well that Ed went home with them. The 5300s were
running at about the same point as my 52s (about 425V, 130mA), and seemed
equal to my VV52s power wise, but the VV52s were slurred and out of focus by
comparison. The 5300s seemed to combine the best qualities of the body and
bass control of the KR type tubes with the clarity, focus and black
background of 45s and 845s.
I had to be sure this was due to the 5300, so we plugged my 52s in in place
of the 5300s. It made Ed's amp sound essentially the same as mine, less
clean and focused, so it was definitely the 5300s vs. the 52s that made the
difference. BTW, this difference existed whether the 52 ran at 5V on the fil
or 6.3V
Just so's you don't think I'm spewing nonsense, I think LynnO and John
Tucker will back me up on these observations. Well done, Ed! Your amp and
the ME2s stole the show. The eleven or twelve folks who came by left saying
it was the best meeting so far this year.
VA5300Bs, highly recommended, gotta get me some...
I am told Steve at Angela sells the 5300s.
Hey Steve, can I get a discount now?
Doc B.
VALVE
coming soon - www.bottlehead.com
=========================================================================
From: "Lynn T. Olson" <lynno@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: ear openers at the VALVE meeting
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 12:54:28 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n269
>Just so's you don't think I'm spewing nonsense, I think LynnO and John
>Tucker will back me up on these observations. Well done, Ed! Your amp and
>the ME2s stole the show. The eleven or twelve folks who came by left saying
>it was the best meeting so far this year.
>
>VA5300Bs, highly recommended, gotta get me some...
>
>Doc B.
>VALVE
>coming soon - www.bottlehead.com
Yup. I concur. It was surprising ... the sight of the 1 by 3 foot board
being carried in by two guys prompted a lot of jokes. Likewise, nobody had
high hopes for a 6SN7 (input and driver direct-coupled), with mundane
RC-coupling between the driver and Chinese tube. (Both Dan and I had heard
some negative press on the sonics of Chinese graphite-plate 300B's.)
However, things got real quiet after the first few seconds of listening,
and there were a lot of amazed looks when the amp was field-converted to
parafeed with clips. Silky-smooth treble and midrange, and effortless
detail ... played loud too, with the 130mA current through the VA5300B's
being quite apparent. They motivated the ME2's and Whamos, *no problem*
What breathed life into what would have ordinarily have been a pretty
mundane circuit must have been the VA5300B's and the bank of trick caps,
which mostly filled the ample area of the breadboard. As the good Doc
mentioned in the previous post, the sonics combined the power reserves of
the KR tubes with the agility of the 45's and 845's ... and more than a
hint of the mono-plate 2A3's creamy, silky sound. If you weren't there,
this is all just jive, but that's what the Doc and I heard.
(BTW, Doc, please set aside 24 of those caps for me, and bring 'em down
with the preamp. There is life after Black Gates after all.)
Lynn T. Olson
E-mail: lynno@teleport.com
Ariel Speaker Page: http://www.teleport.com/~lynno/Ariel.htm
=========================================================================
From: "Doc B." <bottlehead@silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: ear openers at the VALVE meeting
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 08:31:43 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n269
Agree with the first point, the fil voltages are different.
As to the second point, my experience was that the tube was faster, more
concise and clean, and therefore more revealing of detail and giving better
focus than a VV52 running at the same op point (425V, 130mA) but with 6.3V
on the fil.
I know this goes against the general opinion, and I was very surprised to
hear the difference, having championed the VV52 and 32 myself for the last
year or so. I mean, I just published a design using the VV32BC about a month
ago.
Tucker has been off the KR tubes for a while, complaining of this slight
slurring and lack of focus, and has been going with the 45 amp we published
instead, preferring the same type speed and clarity from the 45 that the
5300 exhibited on Sunday.
I have been struggling with the 52 (various attempts at damping and
isolation of the tube and chassis) because I need the beans, and also
because the 45 is still a bit lightweight, even though having better bass in
that circuit than most. We both came away thinking (as did Lynn, I suspect)
that the 5300 was the best of both worlds, the speed and resolution was
there with no sacrifice in power or body.
Doc B.
VALVE
coming soon - www.bottlehead.com
- -----Original Message-----
From: J. Gordon Rankin <waudio@cinti.net>
To: joenet <sound@deliverator.io.com>
Date: Tuesday, May 05, 1998 8:34 AM
Subject: Re: ear openers at the VALVE meeting
>>VA5300Bs, highly recommended, gotta get me some...
>
>Gang,
>
>Remember two things about these tubes that I did not care for:
>
>1) This has a 2A 5V heater instead of the KR 6V heater
>2) The plate is graphite and therefore loses some of the detail compared
>to metal plate tubes.
>
>Gordon
>
>
>=======> Wavelength Audio <=======
>mailto:waudio@cinti.net
>http://www.wavelengthaudio.com
>ph.fx. 513-271-4186 USA
>
>
=========================================================================
From: "J. Gordon Rankin" <waudio@cinti.net>
Subject: Re: ear openers at the VALVE meeting
Date: Tue, 5 May 98 10:13:06 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n269
>VA5300Bs, highly recommended, gotta get me some...
Gang,
Remember two things about these tubes that I did not care for:
1) This has a 2A 5V heater instead of the KR 6V heater
2) The plate is graphite and therefore loses some of the detail compared
to metal plate tubes.
Gordon
=======> Wavelength Audio <=======
mailto:waudio@cinti.net
http://www.wavelengthaudio.com
ph.fx. 513-271-4186 USA
=========================================================================
From: "Lynn T. Olson" <lynno@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: ear openers at the VALVE meeting
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 14:44:46 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n270
>We both came away thinking (as did Lynn, I suspect)
>that the 5300 was the best of both worlds, the speed and resolution was
>there with no sacrifice in power or body.
>
>
>Doc B.
>VALVE
>coming soon - www.bottlehead.com
Still dunno whether it was the way-weird defibrillator caps (talk about
jump factor!!!) or the VA5300B, but direct comparison of the VV52B versus
the VA5300B (true, the VV52B was running at 5V filament, not entirely fair)
in the same amp, the VA5300B gave up nothing at all to the VV52B as far as
transparency was concerned. What was missing was a slight metallic clang,
which could have indeed have been greater microphonics in the KR tube. (The
Valve Arts have *very low* microphonics, lowest I've heard from any
300B-type tube.) Maybe microphonics are the difference? Certainly made me
think long and hard about a non-metallic chassis, something long
recommended by Stan Warren.
Lynn T. Olson
E-mail: lynno@teleport.com
Ariel Speaker Page: http://www.teleport.com/~lynno/Ariel.htm
=========================================================================
From: Yip Hin Fai Johari <hfyip@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: ear openers at the VALVE meeting
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 07:01:48 +0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n270
At 10:13 AM 5/5/98 -0500, J. Gordon Rankin wrote:
>>VA5300Bs, highly recommended, gotta get me some...
>
>Gang,
>
>Remember two things about these tubes that I did not care for:
>
>1) This has a 2A 5V heater instead of the KR 6V heater
>2) The plate is graphite and therefore loses some of the detail compared
>to metal plate tubes.
>
>Gordon
>
>
>=======> Wavelength Audio <=======
>mailto:waudio@cinti.net
>http://www.wavelengthaudio.com
>ph.fx. 513-271-4186 USA
I would gladly give up a bit of detail for more fuller bodied and less edgy
kind of sound.
On the whole, graphite plate gives a more relaxed sound.
Johari
=========================================================================
From: Grego Sanguinetti <grego@latticesemi.com>
Subject: Re: ear openers at the VALVE meeting
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:42:31 -0700 (PDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n271
> Gang,
>
> Remember two things about these tubes that I did not care for:
>
> 1) This has a 2A 5V heater instead of the KR 6V heater
In my amps I tested the VV52 at both 5v and 6v and found no spectral
difference. However, I am not pushing to maximum dissapation, in fact
a good margin under, so that could be an issue. In my build units, I
am in fact using a 5v filament transformer (though it is actually
running a bit high).
I did find the noise fractionally better at 5v.
> 2) The plate is graphite and therefore loses some of the detail compared
> to metal plate tubes.
>
> Gordon
Now here is a classic generality. Sometimes true, but I sure have
heard some graphite tubes (like 845s) amps that had alot of detail.
Enough that I wouldn't rule a tube out because of it.
- -grego
=========================================================================
From: Grego Sanguinetti <grego@latticesemi.com>
Subject: Re: ear openers at the VALVE meeting
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 15:48:41 -0700 (PDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n272
On Thu, 7 May 1998, evaguido wrote:
> >Now here is a classic generality. Sometimes true, but I sure have
> >heard some graphite tubes (like 845s) amps that had alot of detail.
> >Enough that I wouldn't rule a tube out because of it.
>
> And what about the 211 in an Ongaku; details everywhere around the graphite !
Yes Guido and also the 813 is a very detailed tube.
There are always exceptions.....
- -grego
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: ear openers at the VALVE meeting
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 19:23:50 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n272
>Now here is a classic generality. Sometimes true, but I sure have
>heard some graphite tubes (like 845s) amps that had alot of detail.
>Enough that I wouldn't rule a tube out because of it.
And what about the 211 in an Ongaku; details everywhere around the graphite !
Guido
>-grego
>
>
=========================================================================
From: "Ian McPhail" <i.mcphail@rmit.EDU.AU>
Subject: EAR site
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 10:30:42 +1000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n429
JoeNetters, hope this message gets through: www.ear-yoshino.com
Ian McPhail i.mcphail@rmit.edu.au
RMIT Chem and Met Eng Dept 110
GPO Box 2476V
Melbourne 3001
Australia
tel +61 3 9925 2408
fax +61 3 9925 3746
=========================================================================
From: RICHARD JONES <RJ0101@Sprynet.Com>
Subject: EAR V20
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:01:34 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n464
I was just wondering if anyone knows why they picked the 12AX7 instead of
other tubes.
This amp really intrigues me.. i wonder how it would sound with 5 7044 per
channel instead of 10? and just use another 7044 as a driver...
is there any problems with miller effect.... how about a 7044 OTL amp?
hehe..
my mind is thinking now...
Richard..
=========================================================================
From: Paul Joppa <pdj@ISDNseattle.net>
Subject: Re: EAR V20
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 23:00:31 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n465
RICHARD JONES wrote:
>
> I was just wondering if anyone knows why they picked the 12AX7 instead of
> other tubes....snip...
I was told that they tried several, especially the 12AU7, but the AX
sounded best so they went with it.
- -Paul Joppa
=========================================================================
From: "Peter A. Dinda" <pdinda@cs.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: EAR V20
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 10:29:27 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n467
My first reaction to the V20 was that it was a bizarre design. However, it
is quite amazing sounding - very neutral and transparent. What's the
thinking behind the design, anyway?
Peter August Dinda http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~pdinda pdinda@cs.cmu.edu
Doctoral Candidate, School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
=========================================================================
From: tubesguy@mail.execpc.com (Patrick Currie)
Subject: Re: EAR V20
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 11:57:39 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n467
>My first reaction to the V20 was that it was a bizarre design. However, it
>is quite amazing sounding - very neutral and transparent. What's the
>thinking behind the design, anyway?
>
>
>
>Peter August Dinda
Knowing a little bit about the designer, I'd suggest that there's a big
dollop of product differentiation going on, in addition to an apparent
desire to design and build a commercial product that relies on currently
produced "output" tubes. Saw it and heard it at VSAC. It's very nice
looking. - Pat
Pat Currie (tubesguy@execpc.com)
=========================================================================
From: "T. Loesch" <ezee_e@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: EAR V20
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 05:54:32 PST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n468
Hi all,
>>My first reaction to the V20 was that it was a bizarre design.
>>However, it is quite amazing sounding - very neutral and
>>transparent. What's the thinking behind the design, anyway?
>
>it is 20 pcs. of ECC83 in the output stage, that means, 10 each
>channel; I read this information in a German test report on that
>piece of gear.
Well, I looked a bit closer. Had a chat with Tim too.
I think half of his designs are simply based on the fact that he likes
to be different.
I heard part of the genesis of the EL509 SE Amp was the fact that he
tried 300B's and found he could not get much power out of one and they
where expensive (my Info on this comes however not directly from Mr.
deParavichini - so it might just be gossip....).
As for the V-20, it is a Push-Pull Design using as Hartmut said 10 ECC83
per channel as Output valves.
These are driven in permanent Class A2 with the Grids apparently
remaining positive all the Time. Driver is obviously a Cathode follower
and the Frontend has the usual splattering of Valves for Phase-Splitter
and so on.
From this I'd conclude that there is a fairly low HT present and that
the Output Valves are probably run quite hot....
On all occasions where I heard the V-20 I prefered the EL509 SE Amp
(809???) by a long distance. Tim disagreed heartily though....
Kind regards Thorsten.
======================================
e-mail:
Thorsten@tnt-audio.com
Visit TNT-Audio on the Web - the only advertising
free audio web-zine.
http://www.tnt-audio.com
======================================
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
From: Hartmut <Hartmut.Quaschik@mch.sni.de>
Subject: Re: EAR V20
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 14:02:46 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n468
Patrick Currie wrote:
>
> >My first reaction to the V20 was that it was a bizarre design. However, it
> >is quite amazing sounding - very neutral and transparent. What's the
> >thinking behind the design, anyway?
it is 20 pcs. of ECC83 in the output stage, that means, 10 each
channel; I read this information in a German test report on that
piece of gear.
regards,
Hartmut
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: EAR V20
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 18:52:49 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n469
At 14:02 26-10-98 +0100, Hartmut wrote:
>Patrick Currie wrote:
>>
>> >My first reaction to the V20 was that it was a bizarre design.
However, it
>> >is quite amazing sounding - very neutral and transparent. What's the
>> >thinking behind the design, anyway?
>
>it is 20 pcs. of ECC83 in the output stage, that means, 10 each
>channel; I read this information in a German test report on that
>piece of gear.
Tim likes designs deviating from what the whole world does. Paralleling
these tubes can be done because their high output impedance
Guido
>regards,
>Hartmut
>
>
=========================================================================
From: "Richard A. Francis" <rfranci@uoft03.utoledo.edu>
Subject: Re: EAR V20 and NOW Bob Danielak's EL509 amp article in GA
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 12:53:12 -0500 (EST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n467
On Sun, 25 Oct 1998, Peter A. Dinda wrote:
> My first reaction to the V20 was that it was a bizarre design. However, it
> is quite amazing sounding - very neutral and transparent. What's the
> thinking behind the design, anyway?
>
I had a conversation with Dan Meinwald, US rep for EAR, in which Dan said
something like "Tim (de P.) just likes to design something that says
"Screw you" to the cult-like religious types who maintain these
orthodoxies of tube circuits." Hope I'm not
misrepresenting/misremembering -- the conversation was a long time ago. I
think Tim sees that there are limitless ways to build good circuits, even
using non-traditional audio tubes and circuits, and likes to do just that.
He enjoys being the heterodox. Sorta like some of the designers on this
list. The EAR 509 and 519 seemed real strange when they first appeared
too, I'm told, because of the screen-drive and use of "TV tubes".
Hey that reminds me, aren't we way overdue to salute Bob Danielak's GA
article, "Direct Coupling the EL509"?
Nice going, Bob! Hats off!
Rick
=========================================================================
From: "Mark Donen" <soledadd@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 19:15:46 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n264
A7/A5 people, this has got to be the easiest tweak in the world:
30 ohm resistor in parallel to the compression driver. Maybe everyone knows
this, but it really takes the edge off the old buzzsaw.
Mark
=========================================================================
From: Steve Van Osdell <svanos@toast.net>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 19:57:16 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n264
I had a related idea the other day. We were talking recently about paiting
latex and sand on the outside of horns to deaden them. What about that
spray stuff they are using to spray bedliners inside of pickup trucks? It
builds up about a 1/4" coating and seems pretty 'deadening' to me,
especially if some sand were thrown in. What y'all think about that?
Steve
At 07:15 PM 4/29/98 -0400, you wrote:
>A7/A5 people, this has got to be the easiest tweak in the world:
>
>30 ohm resistor in parallel to the compression driver. Maybe everyone knows
>this, but it really takes the edge off the old buzzsaw.
>
>Mark
>
=========================================================================
From: dslagle@earthlink.net (Dave Slagle)
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 20:24:53 -0700 (PDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n264
>A7/A5 people, this has got to be the easiest tweak in the world:
>
>30 ohm resistor in parallel to the compression driver. Maybe everyone knows
>this, but it really takes the edge off the old buzzsaw.
>
>Mark
wouldn't this take the edge off by just reducing the output to the
offending driver???
they have the same mod to do to lowthers, toss a 20 ohm resistor across a
16 ohm driver to tame the nasty impedance curve, but you also toss away
almost 1/2 your power as heat through the resistor... has anyone out there
with a big tube amp (211, 845) ever tried this??? i tried it with a 45, and
at that level the output power is a bit too precious.... i don't imagine
50's to be too different power-wise, maybe a VV-30 (4X the power) and a
matching swamping R would be a good compromise???
dave
=========================================================================
From: Steve Van Osdell <svanos@toast.net>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 22:05:29 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n264
>> I doubt if the horn could ring when buried in
loose, dry sand.
Right, and I doubt if he could move it either!
Steve
=========================================================================
From: SSell71096 <SSell71096@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 00:07:30 EDT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n264
Ask Bill Gaw about his horns!
>>> I doubt if the horn could ring when buried in
loose, dry sand.
Right, and I doubt if he could move it either! <
=========================================================================
From: "william gaw." <whg@tiac.net>
Subject: Re: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:10:09 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n264
Both of you are right. The six foot bass horns consist of 3/4 inch MDF horn,
with a 3/3 in thichk baltic birch cabinet wit 3/4 inch spacers between, with
the spacwe filled with sand. They probably weigh 600 lbs each, so are a real
dog to move, but what sound. I can't think of anything so cheap as sand
which does such a great job of taming resonances. By the way, I didn't fill
them until I had them positioned properly, and don't plan on moving them
until the room caves in.
By the way, I have a partially completed third bass horn(horn itself without
outer casing, in my garage for free if anybody has a use for it. Designed
for two Electrovoice 12 drivers- 106 db/watt, 55- 400 hz, with a 12 db lower
rolloff. Still plenty of power down to the 20's. I originally had the idea
of using three horns, for a central channel, but found it to be slight
overkill. Anyway, if somebody wants the horn, come and pick it up- it's in
two parts, not bolted together yet, so should be fairly easy to load into a
pickup. Bill Gaw
- -----Original Message-----
From: SSell71096 <SSell71096@aol.com>
To: svanos@toast.net <svanos@toast.net>; sound@lists.io.com
<sound@lists.io.com>
Date: Thursday, April 30, 1998 12:22 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
>Ask Bill Gaw about his horns!
>
>>>> I doubt if the horn could ring when buried in
>loose, dry sand.
>
>Right, and I doubt if he could move it either! <
>
=========================================================================
From: bill gardner <wg44929@navix.net>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:04:59 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n264
>>>
>A friend of mine made a box to enclose all but the mouth of an Altec horn.
>There was some kind of opening on the rear of the box to take leads
>through and to pour in sand. I doubt if the horn could ring when buried in
>loose, dry sand.
>
>
>Dr. Peter Campbell (peterca@ento.csiro.au)
>Div. Entomology, C.S.I.R.O. Ph.61-2-62464053 or -62464158 (w)
>Box 1700 Canberra A.C.T. 2601 61-2-62516213 (h)
>Australia 61-2-62464173 (fax)
>
>
>Hi Dr Campbell : Let me be the first to say its great to see you back .
Bill Gardner
=========================================================================
From: peterca@ento.csiro.au
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:45:58 +1000 (EST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n264
>I had a related idea the other day. We were talking recently about paiting
>latex and sand on the outside of horns to deaden them. What about that
>spray stuff they are using to spray bedliners inside of pickup trucks? It
>builds up about a 1/4" coating and seems pretty 'deadening' to me,
>especially if some sand were thrown in. What y'all think about that?
>
>Steve
>
>At 07:15 PM 4/29/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>A7/A5 people, this has got to be the easiest tweak in the world:
>>
>>30 ohm resistor in parallel to the compression driver. Maybe everyone knows
>>this, but it really takes the edge off the old buzzsaw.
>>
>>Mark
>>
A friend of mine made a box to enclose all but the mouth of an Altec horn.
There was some kind of opening on the rear of the box to take leads
through and to pour in sand. I doubt if the horn could ring when buried in
loose, dry sand.
Dr. Peter Campbell (peterca@ento.csiro.au)
Div. Entomology, C.S.I.R.O. Ph.61-2-62464053 or -62464158 (w)
Box 1700 Canberra A.C.T. 2601 61-2-62516213 (h)
Australia 61-2-62464173 (fax)
=========================================================================
From: Grego Sanguinetti <grego@latticesemi.com>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:48:56 -0700 (PDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n265
> >I had a related idea the other day. We were talking recently about paiting
> >latex and sand on the outside of horns to deaden them. What about that
> >spray stuff they are using to spray bedliners inside of pickup trucks? It
> >builds up about a 1/4" coating and seems pretty 'deadening' to me,
> >especially if some sand were thrown in. What y'all think about that?
I tried it. If you add the sand it works fine, though not any better than
the latex and more expensive. By itself it works ok but not anywhere as good
as the sand and paint. You need mass. Mass is the key. The sand enriched latex
looks much better because it is more consistant texture, not as lumpy as
the undercoat type materials.
The sand in the box thing works too, but not any better than the sand/paint
and is ALOT more heavy.
By the way, this heavy deadening (don't forget to also cut the webs) really
smooths out the response curve, which in turns takes away some the effective
"beaming". But it is still a 511, all said and done, not a perfect horn by
any means.
- -grego
=========================================================================
From: Thomas Danley <Tom@ppci.com>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:03:27 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n265
Dave Slagle wrote:
>
> >A7/A5 people, this has got to be the easiest tweak in the world:
> >
> >30 ohm resistor in parallel to the compression driver. Maybe everyone knows
> >this, but it really takes the edge off the old buzzsaw.
> >
> >Mark
>
> wouldn't this take the edge off by just reducing the output to the
> offending driver???
>
> they have the same mod to do to lowthers, toss a 20 ohm resistor across a
> 16 ohm driver to tame the nasty impedance curve, but you also toss away
> almost 1/2 your power as heat through the resistor...
Recall that a resistor in parallel will have no effect on the response
of the driver when it is driven by an impedance considerably lower than
the driver it self and little effect when DF=1. The resistor does help
the crossover network however as it is intended to be terminated with an
unchanging impedance, perhaps a better fix is a series R,L,C tank
circuit which in parallel with the driver, eliminates the resonant peak.
While a peak in the impedance indicates an electromechanical resonance
and is transparent to the reproduction, other resonances can have a
profound effect on the sound. Someone discussed a latex paint and sand
damping fix for the ringing of metalic horns a clever idea and
especially usefull if the horn is not mounted to a baffle board (which
does supply some damping. It is worth remembering that the Altec 311,
511 and 811 (to mention a few) horns are all intended to be mounted on
an acoustic boundry in order to go down to there respective cut-offs and
not having the boundry (baffle board) means there are acoustic
resonances present, near the low cutoff, that shouldn't be there.
Do a lot of you guys have 511 horns? I have one in the garage If there
is any consensious I would be willing to measure it and derive the
proper network. I have the following 1" drivers for testing.
The original alnico Altec driver
a new ceramic Altec 909 8A
a JBL 2426 h
a JBL Le85 t
a Emilar 175
Best Regards,
Thomas Danley
ITC
=========================================================================
From: Richard C Nevill <rnevill@is.dal.ca>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:16:35 -0300 (ADT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n265
I think there is also a spray version of Dynamat type stuff that i
remember from either the MCM cat. or Parts Express cat.
On Wed, 29 Apr 1998, Steve Van Osdell wrote:
> I had a related idea the other day. We were talking recently about paiting
> latex and sand on the outside of horns to deaden them. What about that
> spray stuff they are using to spray bedliners inside of pickup trucks? It
> builds up about a 1/4" coating and seems pretty 'deadening' to me,
> especially if some sand were thrown in. What y'all think about that?
>
> Steve
>
>
=========================================================================
From: "Mark Donen" <soledadd@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:48:26 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n265
Tom Danley wrote:
a better fix is a series R,L,C tank
> circuit which in parallel with the driver, eliminates the resonant peak.
> While a peak in the impedance indicates an electromechanical resonance
> and is transparent to the reproduction, other resonances can have a
> profound effect on the sound.
> Do a lot of you guys have 511 horns? I have one in the garage If there
> is any consensious I would be willing to measure it and derive the
> proper network. I have the following 1" drivers for testing.
> The original alnico Altec driver
> a new ceramic Altec 909 8A
> a JBL 2426 h
> a JBL Le85 t
> a Emilar 175
>
This would be very interesting. Yes I do have 511 horns as do a number of
others (Grego, Bill Gardner and Roscoe for sure). If the reasonant peak is
common to compression drivers in general (I have 806As -- what is the
"original driver you have?") , from this data, a general guide to
compression driver LCRs and can be figured out which would be very
valuable.
Regards,
Mark
=========================================================================
From: Grego Sanguinetti <grego@latticesemi.com>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:15:38 -0700 (PDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n265
On Thu, 30 Apr 1998 Dale.Simon@ps.net wrote:
> Tom Danley wrote:
>
> "I have one in the garage If there is any consensious I would be
> willing to measure it and derive the proper network."
>
> I would be most interested in your results. I use the 802D
> driver with the stock crossover. I would someday like to
> improve on that. So if you get the time, please keep us posted.
My guess is that a heavily damped/modified horn would have
a different resonance pattern and would need unique
electrical compensation.
- -grego
=========================================================================
From: Dale.Simon@ps.net
Subject: Re[2]: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:20:00 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n265
Tom Danley wrote:
"I have one in the garage If there is any consensious I would be
willing to measure it and derive the proper network."
I would be most interested in your results. I use the 802D
driver with the stock crossover. I would someday like to
improve on that. So if you get the time, please keep us posted.
Dale
=========================================================================
From: "Mark Donen" <soledadd@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:01:32 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n265
If you take a look at both the Altec and JBL pro sites, you can see that
Altec & JBL are going to a lot of trouble to smooth the response of their
compression drivers, both in theater and studio systems (in the case of
JBL) with the use of digital domain active crossover/eq. In fact, looking
back to some of the older JBL stuff, they have had active crossovers with
interchangable crossover cards for specific drivers and horns for a long
time (since the 70s?). Issues about whether digital domain crossovers and
eq are the right thing for a good musical result aside, it is clear to see
that unEQed and/or non-notch filtered compression drivers are things of the
distant past even in pro audio. I think, not that it has really been a
point of contention on the list, that LCR filters and/or eq are more than
merely optional niceties in an music optimized horn system. They are the
only way you are going to get a mid/hi horn/driver to work right for hifi
- -- unless you roll the thing off prematurely and roll in to a tweeter.
Rolling over to a tweeter is unnecessary at home where we can afford to
"loose" Spl for the sake of even response. The latter approach (horn to
tweeter) may bring benefits, depending on the tweeter used, of much better
HF dispersion around the room. There is no question that my 511B/806s have
a laser beam width of hf dispersion and no amount of shaping will do
anything to that.
J-M LeCleac'h mentioned awhile back that in Paris he went to a demo of a 4
way horn system with an active digital crossover taken from the pro audio
world (I forget the brand). It would be interesting to know if signal
processing was applied to get the system flat. Switching the active eq in
and out (if it was done) must have had an extreme effect.
Any thoughts?
Mark
=========================================================================
From: "Carl Landey" <cdlandey@aav.com>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 22:10:24 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n265
My 811's w/ 802C's were quite noticably less "beamy" on the highs
when I scraped off the nickle-plating at the wire contact points
inside the binding posts (both on the cabinet posts and on the
compression driver).
=========================================================================
From: davidbarnett@aristotle.net (David Barnett)
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 00:19:48 GMT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n265
On Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:01:32 -0400, "Mark Donen"
<soledadd@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>J-M LeCleac'h mentioned awhile back that in Paris he went to a demo of a 4
>way horn system with an active digital crossover taken from the pro audio
>world (I forget the brand).
BSS OmniDrive or OmniDrive Compact.
- --dnb
=========================================================================
From: Dale.Simon@ps.net
Subject: Re[4]: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 9:24:00 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n265
Grego wrote:
My guess is that a heavily damped/modified horn would have
a different resonance pattern and would need unique
electrical compensation.
- -grego
So, are you suggesting that after one is done modifiing his
horn, he should measure it in order to design suitable
compensation network to achieve the desired results? Is this
difficult?
Dale
=========================================================================
From: Grego Sanguinetti <grego@latticesemi.com>
Subject: Re: Re[4]: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 09:37:08 -0700 (PDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n266
On Fri, 1 May 1998 Dale.Simon@ps.net wrote:
> Grego wrote:
>
> My guess is that a heavily damped/modified horn would have
> a different resonance pattern and would need unique
> electrical compensation.
>
> -grego
>
>
> So, are you suggesting that after one is done modifiing his
> horn, he should measure it in order to design suitable
> compensation network to achieve the desired results? Is this
> difficult?
Yes. but so far I am just using the stock cross over. I installed
bypass sockets in order to biamp so I didn't spend any energy
fussing with the crossovers. But I haven't gotten around to the
biamping rig either....
No. although it does require some measuring equipment.
- -grego
=========================================================================
From: "Lynn T. Olson" <lynno@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 14:44:48 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n266
> ... it is clear to see
>that unEQed and/or non-notch filtered compression drivers are things of the
>distant past even in pro audio. I think, not that it has really been a
>point of contention on the list, that LCR filters and/or eq are more than
>merely optional niceties in an music optimized horn system. They are the
>only way you are going to get a mid/hi horn/driver to work right for hifi ...
>
>Any thoughts?
>
>Mark
I must be really out of fashion these days. I try to select drivers that
don't require equalization in the first place.
Lynn T. Olson
E-mail: lynno@teleport.com
Ariel Speaker Page: http://www.teleport.com/~lynno/Ariel.htm
=========================================================================
From: "Lynn T. Olson" <lynno@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 17:13:46 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n266
>Lynn T. Olson wrote: I must be really out of fashion these days. I try to
>select drivers that
>> don't require equalization in the first place.
>
>Hi Lynn,
>
>questions: the crossover in your Ariel speaker is adjustable to taste isn't
>it? Is that eq? It has impedance correction, is that eq? Isn't a crossover
>slope itself eq? Afterall you don't use Lowthers? Even cabinet design for
>Lowthers or any speaker is about eq. Or am I way off base?
>
>Regards,
>
>Mark
Well, let's just say that when the Vifa 5.5" driver rolls off by itself at
5kHz, without any peaking, that is very very unusual. When you look at the
curves for most drivers (horns, direct radiators, etc), what you usually
see is one or more peaks in the 3 to 5kHz region. For Kevlar and
metal-diaphragm drivers, there may be just one peak ... for Kevlar, it's
about 2 to 5dB high, for metal (which has essentially no self-damping) it
is around 5 to 12dB high (huge!). This is the *best* case to have only one
peak; more typically, with carbon-fiber or rigid paper, there are multiple
peaks starting from 2 to 5 kHz and extending all the way out to 20kHz or
more.
If there is just one peak, a notch filter works just fine as long as the Q
isn't too ferocious ... the problem with high-Q peaks is that each system
will require individual notch tuning to compensate for production
variations in the drivers and crossover parts. Worse, the fine-tuning
really does require instrumentation. Blow a driver, it has to go back to
the factory to re-EQ the notch filter for the new driver ... no field
replacements.
For multiple peaks, the picture is worse, especially for carbon-fiber/paper
cones, which have a characteristic double-peak structure with the twin
peaks being about 100 to 400Hz apart ... this gets pretty ugly pretty fast
in terms of correction requirements. With three or more peaks, all you can
do is dump it fast, which is where 24dB/octave Linkwitz/Riley filters come
in. A careful listener will still hear the peaks, though ... in my
experience peaks are audible even if they are 20dB below the main curve.
The most sensitive objective measure of resonance is the group-delay vs.
freq graph, or the waterfall 3D graph, taking special note of any long
ridges in the time domain. Subjectively, the most sensitive measure is
pink-noise, which is 6 to 20dB more revealing of resonances than music.
(First used by D.E.L. Shorter of the BBC for subjective assessments as
early as the late Fifties.) The drawback of pink-noise is that it conceals
dips and tells nothing about IM distortion.
Ideally, the corrective EQ should be correct in both time and freq domains.
This is possible as long as the peak remains minimum-phase; however, when
the driver is really blowing its cookies and breaking up badly, it then
goes non-minimum-phase, and any attempt at correction is unwise. No amount
of EQ can fix cone breakup, which by definition is a region of very high IM
distortion. I've yet to see an EQ circuit, digital or otherwise, that can
remove the distortion from cone breakup.
There's a big subjective element here as well; we all have very different
subjective tolerances for driver resonances. Since I received my training
back when the BBC school was in the ascendent (early Seventies), I am very
sensitive to driver coloration, and probably less picky about phase
distortion and IM distortion. Since no known technology "does it all", each
one of us has to choose between lowest IM, lowest driver resonance, lowest
pulse distortion, and difficult-to-measure subjective qualities. Until some
clever guy comes up with wideband drivers that have masses equal to the
density of air, we'll be dealing with these kinds of tradeoffs. (Yes, I
heard a Plasmatronics at the 1979 CES. Best tweeter there is, if you don't
mind filling up a helium tank every month.)
Since my first commercial design for Audionics in 1974 was the TLM-200 (a
four-way TL with a 54-element (!) crossover), rest assured I'm done my time
with tricky notch filters and heavy-handed EQ. I try to minimize that stuff
as much as possible these days ... even so my crossover designs still come
out more complex than audiophile designs in the mainstream. Oh well.
Lynn T. Olson
E-mail: lynno@teleport.com
Ariel Speaker Page: http://www.teleport.com/~lynno/Ariel.htm
=========================================================================
From: "Mark Donen" <soledadd@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 18:01:35 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n266
Lynn T. Olson wrote: I must be really out of fashion these days. I try to
select drivers that
> don't require equalization in the first place.
Hi Lynn,
questions: the crossover in your Ariel speaker is adjustable to taste isn't
it? Is that eq? It has impedance correction, is that eq? Isn't a crossover
slope itself eq? Afterall you don't use Lowthers? Even cabinet design for
Lowthers or any speaker is about eq. Or am I way off base?
Regards,
Mark
=========================================================================
From: "Mark Donen" <soledadd@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 21:15:18 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n266
Lynn Olson wrote:
even so my crossover designs still come
> out more complex than audiophile designs in the mainstream. Oh well.
I was gonna say Lynn, you have both a Zobel and a LCR in your networks! I
am certainly not planning a heavy handed eq of the 511/806. I wanted to go
first order with a couple of resistors, but now its clear why that just
wont work. The best option would probably be active xo and eq (same thing)
and then a passive LCR network before the driver. Seems like eq is a dirty
word in hifi... but I am sure you could get a better result if done
intelligently.
Best,
Mark
=========================================================================
From: Thomas Danley <Tom@ppci.com>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 22:45:26 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n266
Lynn T. Olson wrote:
snip>>
When you look at the
> curves for most drivers (horns, direct radiators, etc), what you usually
> see is one or more peaks in the 3 to 5kHz region. For Kevlar and
> metal-diaphragm drivers, there may be just one peak ... for Kevlar, it's
> about 2 to 5dB high, for metal (which has essentially no self-damping) it
> is around 5 to 12dB high (huge!). This is the *best* case to have only one
> peak; more typically, with carbon-fiber or rigid paper, there are multiple
> peaks starting from 2 to 5 kHz and extending all the way out to 20kHz or
> more.
>
> If there is just one peak, a notch filter works just fine as long as the Q
> isn't too ferocious ...
There are more to the peaks than meet the eye. Generally (for the
direct radiator) one is into the inductive roll off part of the drivers
frequency response when you reach the first of the radiator resonant
modes. The inductive roll off can be thought of as "where it ought to
be" and the magnitude of the resonance over that (inductive roll
off)level can be thought of as acoustic gain in the radiator at that
frequency. If you plot the inductive roll off and find the magnitude of
this acoustic gain, it is not too uncommon to find much larger values
than the 5 - 12dB mentioned above.
Large peaks like these produce two unavoidable and uncorrectable side
effects. All loudspeaker motors have nonlinearity (normally from several
sources and are level dependant).
Lets say one has a driver with a 12 dB resonant peak at 3 kHZ and a 24
dB/oct
or even a 96dB/oct crossover at 1.5 Khz. When the driver is fed a 1 KHZ
signal
the driver's third harmonic is magnified by the acoustic gain (16X)
12dB.
Similarly the 4th harmonic of 750 is likewise magnified and so on.
You'll notice the crosover steepness or frequency can change the
harmonic magnification the resonance produces. With sub woofers, the
added difficulty exists that the ears decreasing sensitivity with lower
frequencies makes the distortion spectrum even more audible. This can be
seen looking at the famous "Flecher-Munson" curves or the
more recient Robinson-Dadson curves. What can be seen is that at 20 HZ
for example, your threshold of
hearing is about 75 DB where as at 60 HZ (the third harmonic) the
threshold of audibility is about 40 DB. This means that about a 2% third
harmonic has the same aparent loudness as the fundimental OUCH!!.
As the Dolby paper on subwoofer performance points out, it is very
difficult to make a woofer with "inaudible distortion" (they found no
examples of conventional drivers) that satisfied the requirments and
also very difficult to keep up with your ears declining sensitivity
(requiring even more displacement) as the frequency goes down.
The situation is even worse when there are high Q resonances in the pass
band of the system. The "high Q" part means that in addition to a
significant acoustic gain at that frequency, it takes time to develop
and decay.
Where Lynn mentioned "ridges" in a waterfall display , this is the
decay, sound continues to come from the driver even after the signal is
off.
While high Q peaks can be "EQ'd" flat with a noise signal, it doesn't
really fix the problem as EQ doesn't correct for the time part of the
resonance.
So far as the 511 horn/driver, I'm curious to see how the different
drivers measure, how different the le85 horn/lense compare and see if
any passive EQ might or mechanical damping improve the response,
waterfall plots or if impedance compensation is usefull so far as the
crossover is concerned. I had some speakers that had 511's in the early
70's
so I have sort of a "softspot" and sort of for horns in general I
guess..
Best Regards,
Thomas Danley
=========================================================================
From: bill gardner <wg44929@navix.net>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 08:41:32 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n266
>heard a Plasmatronics at the 1979 CES. Best tweeter there is, if you don't
>mind filling up a helium tank every month.)
>
>
>
>Lynn T. Olson
Hi Mr Olson : Would you please explain more about the Plasmatronics
Tweeter, and how it uses Helium to produce
sound waves ? TIA Bill Gardner
=========================================================================
From: bill gardner <wg44929@navix.net>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 22:00:58 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n266
At 09:15 PM 5/1/98 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Lynn Olson wrote:
>
>even so my crossover designs still come
>> out more complex than audiophile designs in the mainstream. Oh well.
>
>I was gonna say Lynn, you have both a Zobel and a LCR in your networks! I
>am certainly not planning a heavy handed eq of the 511/806. I wanted to go
>first order with a couple of resistors, but now its clear why that just
>wont work. The best option would probably be active xo and eq (same thing)
>and then a passive LCR network before the driver. Seems like eq is a dirty
>word in hifi... but I am sure you could get a better result if done
>intelligently.
>
>Best,
>
>Mark
Mark you are on the right track my man .
In my always humble opinion :<) ... after 3 1/2 years of hard work , lots
of different trial and error approaches, and plenty of help from some of
the people on this list (Thanks everyone ) I have to say that I agree with
what Joe Roberts stated in a fax to me a couple of years ago --- CROSSOVERS
KILL THE MUSIC ---
The only way to go , if you want to have a true ultra fi system is to
BI-AMP , using a active electronic crossover (Thanks JC you are da man
)also I want to add this cool stuff, ain't CHEAP . AS some of you say ,just
my 2 cents . Please no flames . Much much Later I'm like cutting a trail
out a here . Bill Gardner
PS Remember if your trying to be a speaker manufacture , you'll
starve if you don't supply the consumer with a box that uses passive
crossovers , they are not going to work as hard at all this as we do , they
will not buy separate bass amps , cables , interconnects , electronic cross
overs , let alone build the stuff from scratch . Thanks
=========================================================================
From: "Lynn T. Olson" <lynno@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 11:17:54 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n267
>I was gonna say Lynn, you have both a Zobel and a LCR in your networks! I
>am certainly not planning a heavy handed eq of the 511/806. I wanted to go
>first order with a couple of resistors, but now its clear why that just
>wont work. The best option would probably be active xo and eq (same thing)
>and then a passive LCR network before the driver. Seems like eq is a dirty
>word in hifi... but I am sure you could get a better result if done
>intelligently.
>
>Best,
>
>Mark
Well, it really depends on your tolerance for coloration. In the Ariel, I
use a notch filter to correct a 1dB deviation at 1.5kHz in the tweeter
rolloff. This is pretty small potatoes by the standards of the prosound
world, but the notch filter straightens out the inter-driver phase angle in
the crossover region, thus improving the image quality.
Correcting a horn to this degree of smoothness might be a tough proposition
... I'm not sure it can be done, or would even be desirable. There's such a
thing as over-correcting a loudspeaker; where that fine line lies is a
subjective matter. My own feeling is that one way or another, the basic
character of the drivers always comes through, and much of the art of
speaker design is deciding what kind of character in the drivers matches
your own taste.
Lynn T. Olson
E-mail: lynno@teleport.com
Ariel Speaker Page: http://www.teleport.com/~lynno/Ariel.htm
=========================================================================
From: "Lynn T. Olson" <lynno@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 11:34:27 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n267
>Hi Mr Olson : Would you please explain more about the Plasmatronics
>Tweeter, and how it uses Helium to produce
>sound waves ? TIA Bill Gardner
The designer was a plasma physicist at Los Alamos Labs (yes, he was a bomb
designer) and in his spare time he and his friends at the Labs wanted to
mess with hi-fi. Being a plasma guy, he was well aware of the drawbacks of
ionizing air (as used in the DuKane Ionivac and the Magnat), which of
course are toxic levels of ozone and nitrous oxide.
Dr. Hill side-stepped the problem by introducing an external source of
helium (the aforementioned tank, which was stashed in a recess in the
subwoofer cabinet), RF heating the helium to ionization (it glowed
purple-blue, neat color), then modulating the small gas cloud by an
electrostatic charge (similar to an electrostat). The full name of the
speaker was the Hill Plasmatronic, perhaps a patent search focussing on the
late 1970's could yield results.
Anyway, it was a big-ass dynamic speaker (with pretty mediocre dynamic
drivers), *but* it had what for all the world like a captive Dyna Stereo 70
up on top in a cage, and magically enough, a small glowing sphere of gas in
the middle of the cage, maybe about 1" across. Yes, the sphere pulsed and
glowed with the music, and the Hill folks dimmed the lights so we could get
the full effect. Treble? The best I've heard ... hyper-fast,
distortionless, etc etc. Not surprising, considering the ruler-flat
response to 100kHz plus, distortion under 0.1%, omnidirectional response,
etc. No electrostat or horn has ever come anywhere near what the
Plasmatronics could do. But that helium tank!
This was in 1979 at the WCES ... hmmm, maybe a sneak preview of Star Wars
technology. Too bad out of all those billions they didn't set aside
0.00001% for better sound.
Lynn T. Olson
E-mail: lynno@teleport.com
Ariel Speaker Page: http://www.teleport.com/~lynno/Ariel.htm
=========================================================================
From: Roscoe Primrose <roscoe@aiko.com>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 20:35:25 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n267
bill gardner wrote:
> At 09:15 PM 5/1/98 -0400, you wrote:
> >
> >Lynn Olson wrote:
> >
>
Snip...
> Mark you are on the right track my man .
> In my always humble opinion :<) ... after 3 1/2 years of hard work , lots
> of different trial and error approaches, and plenty of help from some of
> the people on this list (Thanks everyone ) I have to say that I agree with
> what Joe Roberts stated in a fax to me a couple of years ago --- CROSSOVERS
> KILL THE MUSIC ---
> The only way to go , if you want to have a true ultra fi system is to
> BI-AMP , using a active electronic crossover (Thanks JC you are da man
> )also I want to add this cool stuff, ain't CHEAP . AS some of you say ,just
> my 2 cents . Please no flames . Much much Later I'm like cutting a trail
> out a here . Bill Gardner
I'd have to disagree there... It's not crossovers that kill the music, it's
crossovers with ATTENUATION which kill the music. If your LF drivers can keep
up with your HF drivers, then there's nothing wrong with a crossover instead of
bi-amping. And yes, I've tried it both ways.
> PS Remember if your trying to be a speaker manufacture , you'll
> starve if you don't supply the consumer with a box that uses passive
> crossovers , they are not going to work as hard at all this as we do , they
> will not buy separate bass amps , cables , interconnects , electronic cross
> overs , let alone build the stuff from scratch . Thanks
- --
Roscoe Primrose
- -- mailto:roscoe@aiko.com -- http://www.aiko.com/roscoe --
"Once in a while you get shown the light
In the strangest of places if you look at it right." Robert Hunter
=========================================================================
From: "Daniel J. Marshall" <danmarshall@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 21:37:56 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n267
bill gardner wrote:
>
> This all started when I said----
>
> > Mark you are on the right track my man .
> > In my always humble opinion :<) ... after 3 1/2 years of hard work , lots
> > of different trial and error approaches, and plenty of help from some of
> > the people on this list (Thanks everyone ) I have to say that I agree with
> > what Joe Roberts stated in a fax to me a couple of years ago --- CROSSOVERS
> > KILL THE MUSIC ---
> > The only way to go , if you want to have a true ultra fi system is to
> > BI-AMP , using a active electronic crossover (Thanks JC you are da man
> > )also I want to add this cool stuff, ain't CHEAP . AS some of you say ,just
> > my 2 cents .
>
> Roscoe then said--------
> I'd have to disagree there... It's not crossovers that kill the music, it's
> crossovers with ATTENUATION which kill the music. If your LF drivers can keep
> up with your HF drivers, then there's nothing wrong with a crossover
> instead of
> bi-amping. And yes, I've tried it both ways.
> I guess I don't understand this. Given that a horn/driver reportedly
sounds better when it is driven by a source impedance equal to its own
rated impedance, if the attenuator is a T Pad, which keeps the impedance
constant at all settings, then why would it destroy the sound? Perhaps
attenuation with an L pad, pot or rheostat would affect the sound. I
suspect that it would. Alternatively, a resistive divider configured
such that its impedance is equal to the driver impedance (on both sides)
then I don't see how this could screw the sound either. Of
course biamping could improve the sound by operating the amplfier at a
lower drive level and also w/o having the hf ride on top of a large bass
signal. Anyway, I am not questioning whether biamp would sound better,
rather why horn attenuation, if done properly, degrades the sound over a
non-attenuated passive system.
Dan Marshall
=========================================================================
From: bill gardner <wg44929@navix.net>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 09:29:00 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n267
This all started when I said----
> Mark you are on the right track my man .
> In my always humble opinion :<) ... after 3 1/2 years of hard work , lots
> of different trial and error approaches, and plenty of help from some of
> the people on this list (Thanks everyone ) I have to say that I agree with
> what Joe Roberts stated in a fax to me a couple of years ago --- CROSSOVERS
> KILL THE MUSIC ---
> The only way to go , if you want to have a true ultra fi system is to
> BI-AMP , using a active electronic crossover (Thanks JC you are da man
> )also I want to add this cool stuff, ain't CHEAP . AS some of you say ,just
> my 2 cents .
Roscoe then said--------
I'd have to disagree there... It's not crossovers that kill the music, it's
crossovers with ATTENUATION which kill the music. If your LF drivers can keep
up with your HF drivers, then there's nothing wrong with a crossover
instead of
bi-amping. And yes, I've tried it both ways.
Than Bill said-----
I thought about what Roscoe said and have this question .... What really
world class drivers , woofer... mid ... amd tweeter can you put together
with all the same efficiencies ( 1W 1db ) with a 1 2 3 or 4 way passive
crossover that will perform like say the Focal audiom , ATC mid and Stage
or Seqquerra ribbon in a bi amped configuration ? Just curious and still
learning. Thanks Bill Gardner
=========================================================================
From: "william gaw." <whg@tiac.net>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 08:30:23 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n268
I have to agree with Bill. I tried for a year through experimentat using an
IMP system, to get a passive crossover that sounded great with my horns,
both the Edgar originals, and the Edgar round horns with my 6 ft straight
bass horns. No matter what caps, inductors and resistors I used, and no
matter how close I came to a straight frequency curve, each time I could get
one of these three out of the system, it seemed to sound better(less veiled,
faster, and better sound stage.
When I went with active crossovers(Marchand ss and tube), with
biamping(Electraprint VV30B units, the music was glorious, even though I was
going through 8 extra tubes and their various caps and resistors. I don't
know whether it was the removal of the large signal caps and inductors, or
the intimacy of the amps to the speakers, but I am sold that active
crossovers and multiple amps are the way to go. I think the only reason
speaker makers still go with passive systems, is their ease and lower cost
for the consumers.
- -----Original Message-----
From: bill gardner <wg44929@navix.net>
To: sound@deliverator.io.com <sound@deliverator.io.com>
Date: Sunday, May 03, 1998 10:44 PM
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
>This all started when I said----
>
>> Mark you are on the right track my man .
>> In my always humble opinion :<) ... after 3 1/2 years of hard work , lots
>> of different trial and error approaches, and plenty of help from some of
>> the people on this list (Thanks everyone ) I have to say that I agree
with
>> what Joe Roberts stated in a fax to me a couple of years ago ---
CROSSOVERS
>> KILL THE MUSIC ---
>> The only way to go , if you want to have a true ultra fi system is to
>> BI-AMP , using a active electronic crossover (Thanks JC you are da man
>> )also I want to add this cool stuff, ain't CHEAP . AS some of you say
,just
>> my 2 cents .
>
>Roscoe then said--------
>I'd have to disagree there... It's not crossovers that kill the music,
it's
>crossovers with ATTENUATION which kill the music. If your LF drivers can
keep
>up with your HF drivers, then there's nothing wrong with a crossover
>instead of
>bi-amping. And yes, I've tried it both ways.
>
>Than Bill said-----
>I thought about what Roscoe said and have this question .... What really
>world class drivers , woofer... mid ... amd tweeter can you put together
>with all the same efficiencies ( 1W 1db ) with a 1 2 3 or 4 way passive
>crossover that will perform like say the Focal audiom , ATC mid and Stage
>or Seqquerra ribbon in a bi amped configuration ? Just curious and still
>learning. Thanks Bill Gardner
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
=========================================================================
From: Roscoe Primrose <roscoe@aiko.com>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 09:30:38 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n268
Daniel J. Marshall wrote:
> >> I have to say that I agree with
> > > what Joe Roberts stated in a fax to me a couple of years ago ---
CROSSOVERS
> > > KILL THE MUSIC ---
> > > The only way to go , if you want to have a true ultra fi system is
to
> > > BI-AMP , using a active electronic crossover (Thanks JC you are da
man
> > > )also I want to add this cool stuff, ain't CHEAP . AS some of you
say ,just
> > > my 2 cents .
> >
> > Roscoe then said--------
> > I'd have to disagree there... It's not crossovers that kill the
music, it's
> > crossovers with ATTENUATION which kill the music. If your LF drivers
can keep
> > up with your HF drivers, then there's nothing wrong with a crossover
> > instead of
> > bi-amping. And yes, I've tried it both ways.
> >
> I guess I don't understand this. Given that a horn/driver reportedly
> sounds better when it is driven by a source impedance equal to its own
> rated impedance, if the attenuator is a T Pad, which keeps the
impedance
> constant at all settings, then why would it destroy the sound? Perhaps
> attenuation with an L pad, pot or rheostat would affect the sound. I
> suspect that it would. Alternatively, a resistive divider configured
> such that its impedance is equal to the driver impedance (on both
sides)
> then I don't see how this could screw the sound either. Of
> course biamping could improve the sound by operating the amplfier at a
> lower drive level and also w/o having the hf ride on top of a large
bass
> signal. Anyway, I am not questioning whether biamp would sound better,
> rather why horn attenuation, if done properly, degrades the sound over
a
> non-attenuated passive system.
>
> Dan Marshall
Well, I've not tried it with a T-pad.... Anyone have a diagram for a
16ohm t-pad,
or have a couple so I could check and report back?
Peace
- --
Roscoe Primrose -- mailto:roscoe@aiko.com -- http://www.aiko.com/roscoe
"Once in a while you get shown the light
In the strangest of places if you look at it right." Robert Hunter
"640K ought to be enough for anybody" , Bill Gates, 1981
=========================================================================
From: Roscoe Primrose <roscoe@aiko.com>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 09:35:29 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n268
bill gardner wrote:
> This all started when I said----
>
> > Mark you are on the right track my man .
> > In my always humble opinion :<) ... after 3 1/2 years of hard work , lots
> > of different trial and error approaches, and plenty of help from some of
> > the people on this list (Thanks everyone ) I have to say that I agree with
> > what Joe Roberts stated in a fax to me a couple of years ago --- CROSSOVERS
> > KILL THE MUSIC ---
> > The only way to go , if you want to have a true ultra fi system is to
> > BI-AMP , using a active electronic crossover (Thanks JC you are da man
> > )also I want to add this cool stuff, ain't CHEAP . AS some of you say ,just
> > my 2 cents .
>
> Roscoe then said--------
> I'd have to disagree there... It's not crossovers that kill the music, it's
> crossovers with ATTENUATION which kill the music. If your LF drivers can keep
> up with your HF drivers, then there's nothing wrong with a crossover
> instead of
> bi-amping. And yes, I've tried it both ways.
>
> Than Bill said-----
> I thought about what Roscoe said and have this question .... What really
> world class drivers , woofer... mid ... amd tweeter can you put together
> with all the same efficiencies ( 1W 1db ) with a 1 2 3 or 4 way passive
> crossover that will perform like say the Focal audiom , ATC mid and Stage
> or Seqquerra ribbon in a bi amped configuration ? Just curious and still
> learning. Thanks Bill Gardner
Well, I'm currently running Altec 515Bs in JBL 4560 horn loaded cabinets for LF
with Altec 806As on 511B horns (although, I've got a line on three tar-filled
1005Bs ;-) ), and the levels match pretty well by ear with no attenuation. It
doesn't take much attenuation (with an L-Pad anyway) to destroy the sound, with an
L-Pad in the circuit, just turning it enough down from all the way up that it puts
itself in the circuit makes a huge difference, even though the attenuation is on
the order of 0.1db....
Peace
- --
Roscoe Primrose -- mailto:roscoe@aiko.com -- http://www.aiko.com/roscoe
"Once in a while you get shown the light
In the strangest of places if you look at it right." Robert Hunter
"640K ought to be enough for anybody" , Bill Gates, 1981
=========================================================================
From: Thomas Danley <Tom@ppci.com>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 09:55:27 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n268
william gaw. wrote:
>
> I have to agree with Bill. I tried for a year through experimentat using an
> IMP system, to get a passive crossover that sounded great with my horns,
> both the Edgar originals, and the Edgar round horns with my 6 ft straight
> bass horns. No matter what caps, inductors and resistors I used, and no
> matter how close I came to a straight frequency curve, each time I could get
> one of these three out of the system, it seemed to sound better(less veiled,
> faster, and better sound stage.
> When I went with active crossovers(Marchand ss and tube), with
> biamping(Electraprint VV30B units, the music was glorious, even though I was
> going through 8 extra tubes and their various caps and resistors. I don't
> know whether it was the removal of the large signal caps and inductors, or
> the intimacy of the amps to the speakers, but I am sold that active
> crossovers and multiple amps are the way to go.
Hi
On the other hand like they say "correlation is not causality", several
other things are also different when one bi-amps there speakers.
Non-linearity in the bass amplifier is not passed on thru the to the
high end horn which automatically produces a cleaner sound.
Reducing the bandwidth that each amp handles also is a good thing so far
as spectral contamination. Having a bi-amped system also allows about 2X
the spl to be produced for a given total wattage and so at a given
listening level means the amps in a bi-amped system are operating at a
reduced level where they are also somewhat more linear.
It is also sometimes the case that a more "perfect" reactive component
(like an inductor or capacitor) can be realized in circuitry than at the
power level required to be a crossover network.
Remember it is not how many extra stages that count but rather WHAT
those stages do to the signal.
In theory anyway there is no difference between what an active and
passive crossover does but in practice other things are also different
when one makes the change.
Tom
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 21:25:48 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n269
Works fine with "normal" tweeters / drivers as well !
Guido
At 19:15 29-4-98 -0400, Mark Donen wrote:
>A7/A5 people, this has got to be the easiest tweak in the world:
>
>30 ohm resistor in parallel to the compression driver. Maybe everyone knows
>this, but it really takes the edge off the old buzzsaw.
>
>Mark
>
>
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 21:25:50 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n269
The resistor gives damping below the cross-over, were the driving impedance
rises (series capacitor), so eny artefacts below f-res get little damping
Guido
At 20:24 29-4-98 -0700, Dave Slagle wrote:
>>A7/A5 people, this has got to be the easiest tweak in the world:
>>
>>30 ohm resistor in parallel to the compression driver. Maybe everyone knows
>>this, but it really takes the edge off the old buzzsaw.
>>
>>Mark
>
>wouldn't this take the edge off by just reducing the output to the
>offending driver???
>
>they have the same mod to do to lowthers, toss a 20 ohm resistor across a
>16 ohm driver to tame the nasty impedance curve, but you also toss away
>almost 1/2 your power as heat through the resistor... has anyone out there
>with a big tube amp (211, 845) ever tried this??? i tried it with a 45, and
>at that level the output power is a bit too precious.... i don't imagine
>50's to be too different power-wise, maybe a VV-30 (4X the power) and a
>matching swamping R would be a good compromise???
>
>
>dave
>
>
>
=========================================================================
From: Joseph Lowe <jlowe@cdc.net>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 23:50:42 -0400 (EDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n269
> I think she had listened
> to the Dead thru my S/S bass amp/
The Dead will show up any tendency to whipyness real quick like. Truckin'
on Europe '72 is one of my favorite test tracks.
=========================================================================
From: bill gardner <wg44929@navix.net>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 09:54:52 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n269
and then Roscoe replied--------------
> Well, I'm currently running Altec 515Bs in JBL 4560 horn loaded cabinets
for LF
>with Altec 806As on 511B horns (although, I've got a line on three tar-filled
>1005Bs ;-) ), and the levels match pretty well by ear with no attenuation.
It
>doesn't take much attenuation (with an L-Pad anyway) to destroy the sound,
with an
>L-Pad in the circuit, just turning it enough down from all the way up that
it puts
>itself in the circuit makes a huge difference, even though the attenuation
is on
>the order of 0.1db....
>
>Peace
And of course Bill added to this thread .... Please don't take this as
anything but a friendly and open minded reply.... But .... I tried some
515s in 825 boxs .... I also understand lots of you guys dig this
nostalgia theater altec stuff , think back to the glorious days of
yester-years , remember the little old gal on the tv commercial that said
..... wheres the bass? err maybe it was beef ? nah I think she had listened
to the Dead thru my S/S bass amp/ 845 mid / hi, bi-amped setup, and then
went over to a friends house with some 515s, and after comparing the two
systems .... said it ;>)
Hey,,, whatever races your motor .... like roscoe said, peace
Bill
=========================================================================
From: bill gardner <wg44929@navix.net>
Subject: Re: Easy Altec Tweak
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 09:54:54 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n269
and then Roscoe replied--------------
> Well, I'm currently running Altec 515Bs in JBL 4560 horn loaded cabinets
for LF
>with Altec 806As on 511B horns (although, I've got a line on three tar-filled
>1005Bs ;-) ), and the levels match pretty well by ear with no attenuation.
It
>doesn't take much attenuation (with an L-Pad anyway) to destroy the sound,
with an
>L-Pad in the circuit, just turning it enough down from all the way up that
it puts
>itself in the circuit makes a huge difference, even though the attenuation
is on
>the order of 0.1db....
>
>Peace
And of course Bill added to this thread .... Please don't take this as
anything but a friendly and open minded reply.... But .... I tried some
515s in 825 boxs .... I also understand lots of you guys dig this
nostalgia theater altec stuff , think back to the glorious days of
yester-years , remember the little old gal on the tv commercial that said
..... wheres the bass? err maybe it was beef ? nah I think she had listened
to the Dead thru my S/S bass amp/ 845 mid / hi, bi-amped setup, and then
went over to a friends house with some 515s, and after comparing the two
systems .... said it ;>)
Hey,,, whatever races your motor .... like roscoe said, peace
Bill
=========================================================================
From: "Conrad Drake" <conrad.drake@intellect.com.au>
Subj