Sound Practices Mailing List Files - Volume 2
=========================================================================
From: "P. de R. L." <triode@bow-tie.org.uk>
Subject: [JN] Re:J111 cascode
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 20:29:50 -0000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n434
Whoops - J111 cascode.
What do I do with the drain of the upper one?
Paul
- -----
=========================================================================
From: Simon Busbridge <S.C.Busbridge@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [JN] J-704 = type 50?
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 16:56:19 +0100 (BST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n187
Robert,
Isn't the type 50 with the American UX base? I don't recall any British
types by that number.
Simon
Simon Busbridge, BSc(Hons) PhD CPhys MInstP
School of Engineering
University of Brighton
Lewes Road
Moulsecoomb
Brighton BN2 4GJ
UNITED KINGDOM
Tel: 0044 (0)1273 642542
Fax: 0044 (0)1273 642327/642301
e-mail: s.c.busbridge@bton.ac.uk, scbusbridge@hotmail.com
On Thu, 24 Jun 1999, Robert Ang wrote:
> Hi, guys.
>
> My friend has stumbled upon some tubes which are apparently English, named
> J-704. He says that they are probably pin-for-pin compatible for type 50
> tubes, having the same electrical characteristics. These tubes are balloon
> shaped, with a weird internal glass support.
>
> Is anyone familiar with these tubes?
>
> Robert Ang
>
>
=========================================================================
From: "Robert Ang" <rang@opera.iinet.net.au>
Subject: [JN] J-704 = type 50?
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 23:31:48 +0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n187
Hi, guys.
My friend has stumbled upon some tubes which are apparently English, named
J-704. He says that they are probably pin-for-pin compatible for type 50
tubes, having the same electrical characteristics. These tubes are balloon
shaped, with a weird internal glass support.
Is anyone familiar with these tubes?
Robert Ang
=========================================================================
From: dslagle@earthlink.net (dave slagle)
Subject: [JN] jameco toroids.
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 17:55:59 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n366
hey all,
they came in the mail today.. basically a bust they were epoxy coated in a
platic case... basically impossible to get into to change... plus the
primary is on the outside so you can't even get at the secondary...
they do have a 230V primary option which here in the states would give you
a nice 10-0-10V trannie for $5 you could do worse....
just don't plan on mussin' with them...
dave
=========================================================================
From: "Warren Tremain" <warren2@gate.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] James Brown
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 15:25:22 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n050
- -----Original Message-----
From: Jeremy Epstein <jepstein@shwd.com>
To: Joenet <sound@lists.io.com>
Date: Thursday, February 18, 1999 2:27 PM
Subject: [JN] James Brown (was : "Strange happening with CD!!??")
>JB (and also to a lesser extent Ray) was also notorious for exacting
>penalties for sloppy playing live : maybe this was part of it.
>
You know Jb was notorious for fining players in his band for missing notes
But Ray was better at actually yelling at the band while playing. I have seen
him
anumber of times. Once he yelled at the band "hear that clapping .. thats the
beat
now try playing it" and I even recall him yelling at the Tonight show band while
playing with them.
=========================================================================
From: Jeremy Epstein <jepstein@shwd.com>
Subject: [JN] James Brown (was : "Strange happening with CD!!??")
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:48:19 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n049
> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:35:28 +0100
> From: Christian Rintelen <rintelen@datacomm.ch>
> Subject: Re: [JN] Strange happening with CD!!??
>
> SOS674@aol.com wrote:
>
> > Please guys, tread lightly on my favorite sound that is, Muscle Shoals or
> > Stax. Thanks, Mike
>
> No worries... Like any intelligent being I own a couple of hundred Muscle
> Shoals, Stax, Atlantic and King records.
> All I said was that Wilson Picket's
> and Otis Redding's voice is (sometimes heavily!) distorted. But that's part
> of the concept -- just imagine an undistorted James Brown recording. Yuk!
>
> Christian
Thank God there's intelligent life on this planet!
It's my longstanding opinion that the instrumental tracks on JB's early
recordings were recorded much _better_ than were the bulk of soul
records of the day (let's say late '50's - mid '60's.)
The Godfather, like Aretha and Wicked Pickett, did indeed often cook the
mic on his vocal tracks. (Perhaps the mic preamp? Maybe someone more
knowledgeable can weigh in here with their opinion on where in the chain
this generally used to happen?) Let's face it, he was letting out
full-throated screams on plenty of occasions!
But on his records there is good clarity and separation of the
instruments FOR THE TIME and RELATIVE TO MOST OTHER SOUL RECORDS,
Stax/Volt, Motown, even Atlantic although Atlantic was a bit better than
most. A lot more drum attack, a lot cleaner bass to my ears generally
speaking. Now plenty of soul records, especially on the smaller labels,
were going for more of a blurred, "wall of sound" approach anyway, but I
still find this distinction worthy of note.
As an example of this clarity, there is a James Brown track ("I Don't
Care," I think) where you can tell the kick-drum pedal needs to be
oiled, and it is not exactly hard to hear. On lots of records of this
era, you couldn't properly hear the kick drum itself!
Considering that JB used to record mostly in hit-and-run sessions
sandwiched between road engagements, at a variety of studios, as opposed
to, say, the MG's or the Muscle Shoals house band that used to hunker
down in the same studio for long stretches of time, I have always
thought this a remarkable achievement of JB's.
JB (also Ray Charles) epitomizes a quailty that seems pretty rare : as
bandleaders they were always able to get an extremely tight band sound
on record (not to mention live) even though there were personnel shifts
fairly often. I find this remarkable for both the razor-sharpness of the
bands, and the consistency across time and personnel, for both the
Godfather Of Soul and Brother Ray. One reason perhaps is that these
leaders generally did both live dates and studio recordings with the
same personnel. They worked their act out on the road and so came into
the studio very sharp.
JB (and also to a lesser extent Ray) was also notorious for exacting
penalties for sloppy playing live : maybe this was part of it.
Just my 2 cents.
- -j
- --
=====================================
Jeremy Epstein .... jepstein@shwd.com
=====================================
=========================================================================
From: Derrick Beckner <dgb@psulias.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [JN] James Brown (was : "Strange happening with CD!!??")
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 14:42:41 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n050
Oh man, on Led Zeppelin's "Since I've Been Lovin' You) Bonzo's kick drum
pedal is squeaking so loud it drive me to distraction.
>
>As an example of this clarity, there is a James Brown track ("I Don't
>Care," I think) where you can tell the kick-drum pedal needs to be
>oiled, and it is not exactly hard to hear. On lots of records of this
>era, you couldn't properly hear the kick drum itself!
*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*
Vote for the Meadow Party
Bill n' Opus 2000
....ack....
A dead cat has no moral entanglements
Derrick Beckner
=========================================================================
From: Kalman Rubinson <kr4@is2.nyu.edu>
Subject: [JN] JAN-CKR-9006
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 15:16:04 -0400 (EDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n128
Does anyone know what these are? Found a few NOS.
Kal
=========================================================================
From: Ross J Lahlum <rlahlum@juno.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] JAN-CKR-9006
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 20:42:19 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n146
Kal,
Sibley's Tube Lore says the 9006 is a min. rcvg. UHF diode, heater
6.3v@150 mA, 750 v PIV, 5 mA, internal resonant freq. 1500 MHz, ca. 1943.
(OK, so maybe I'm a little behind in reading my mail ;-)
Regards,
Ross
On Mon, 19 Apr 1999 15:16:04 -0400 (EDT) Kalman Rubinson
<kr4@is2.nyu.edu> writes:
>Does anyone know what these are? Found a few NOS.
>
>Kal
>
>
>
>
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=========================================================================
From: "PEARL Cust Serv" <custserv@pearl-hifi.com>
Subject: [JN] JAN GE 211s
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 16:52:41 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n721
Yo Joes:
I have a pair of seemingly NOS JAN GE 211s that I just cryo treated.
I'll give 6 months warranty provided that you don't do anything dumb
with them. . . . the honor system.
Pix to any who ask . . . $US150.00 for the pair, no sockets
Best regards,
Bill - PEARL, Inc.
=========================================================================
From: Phil <tube@jump.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] JAN GE 211s
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 19:15:59 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n721
Bill,
I've been meaning to ask how the cryo affects the big triodes like the
211 and also the Sovtek 2A3 monoplates, if you've tried it on them. Of
course I assume it sounds better, but how much, and in what way. I will
appreciate any info.
I don't remember if I ever posted something on a gun article I read, but
they cryo treated a gun barrel, mentioned that it causes a phase change
in the metal that is otherwise impossible to achieve, and backed it up
with a big improvement in accuracy, a huge change in how long it could
go without cleaning before the accuracy fell off--the bore collected
less junk--and added that previous experience suggests a 5-fold or so
increase in life expectancy for the barrel.
Apparently, cryo treating causes significant permanent physical changes,
so you really AREN'T just full of hype! (not that I ever doubted, of
course ...)
Phil
PEARL Cust Serv wrote:
> Yo Joes:
> I have a pair of seemingly NOS JAN GE 211s that I just cryo treated.
> I'll give 6 months warranty provided that you don't do anything dumb
> with them. . . . the honor system.
> Pix to any who ask . . . $US150.00 for the pair, no sockets
>
> Best regards,
> Bill - PEARL, Inc.
=========================================================================
From: "PEARL Cust Serv" <custserv@pearl-hifi.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] JAN GE 211s
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 21:51:49 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n721
Hi All, Richard Neville wrote:
> Hey,
>
> If you want to try it out as an experiment I have a pair of RCA 811's. I
> sure don't have an amp to try 'em in but I don't mind sending 'em to Bill
> to cryo and then on to someone else to check out. I'll even chuck in a few
> bucks for the experiment.
>
> Cheers
>
> Richard Nevill
I'm game . . . send them and I'll freeze them. I guess I'm going to have
write a paper on this cryo business. I'll see about getting a draft posted
over the weekend but no promises . . .
Bill - PEARL, Inc.
>
> On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Phil wrote:
>
>> Bill,
>>
>> I've been meaning to ask how the cryo affects the big triodes like the
>> 211 and also the Sovtek 2A3 monoplates, if you've tried it on them. Of
>> course I assume it sounds better, but how much, and in what way. I will
>> appreciate any info.
>>
>> I don't remember if I ever posted something on a gun article I read, but
>> they cryo treated a gun barrel, mentioned that it causes a phase change
>> in the metal that is otherwise impossible to achieve, and backed it up
>> with a big improvement in accuracy, a huge change in how long it could
>> go without cleaning before the accuracy fell off--the bore collected
>> less junk--and added that previous experience suggests a 5-fold or so
>> increase in life expectancy for the barrel.
>>
>> Apparently, cryo treating causes significant permanent physical changes,
>> so you really AREN'T just full of hype! (not that I ever doubted, of
>> course ...)
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> PEARL Cust Serv wrote:
>>
>> > Yo Joes:
>> > I have a pair of seemingly NOS JAN GE 211s that I just cryo treated.
>> > I'll give 6 months warranty provided that you don't do anything dumb
>> > with them. . . . the honor system.
>> > Pix to any who ask . . . $US150.00 for the pair, no sockets
>> >
>> > Best regards,
>> > Bill - PEARL, Inc.
>>
>>
>
=========================================================================
From: Grover Gardner <groverg@postoffice.att.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] JAN GE 211s
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 22:05:48 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n721
At 7:15 PM -0600 11/3/00, Phil wrote:
>Bill,
>
>I've been meaning to ask how the cryo affects the big triodes like the
>211 and also the Sovtek 2A3 monoplates, if you've tried it on them. Of
>course I assume it sounds better, but how much, and in what way. I will
>appreciate any info.
I've heard quite a few cryo-ed tubes, including a pair of cryo-ed
845s. Not a small change. Very lean and mean, almost too "fast" for
my taste. Also cryo-ed 6336s, again a noticeable increase in "speed"
and linearity. The graphite plate tubes seem especially to undergo a
transformation. Not to discourage a cool purchase by any means, but
be prepared for something really different...
- -------
Grover Gardner
groverg@postoffice.att.net
=========================================================================
From: Richard C Nevill <rnevill@is.dal.ca>
Subject: Re: [JN] JAN GE 211s
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 23:29:22 -0400 (AST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n721
Hey,
If you want to try it out as an experiment I have a pair of RCA 811's. I
sure don't have an amp to try 'em in but I don't mind sending 'em to Bill
to cryo and then on to someone else to check out. I'll even chuck in a few
bucks for the experiment.
Cheers
Richard Nevill
On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Phil wrote:
> Bill,
>
> I've been meaning to ask how the cryo affects the big triodes like the
> 211 and also the Sovtek 2A3 monoplates, if you've tried it on them. Of
> course I assume it sounds better, but how much, and in what way. I will
> appreciate any info.
>
> I don't remember if I ever posted something on a gun article I read, but
> they cryo treated a gun barrel, mentioned that it causes a phase change
> in the metal that is otherwise impossible to achieve, and backed it up
> with a big improvement in accuracy, a huge change in how long it could
> go without cleaning before the accuracy fell off--the bore collected
> less junk--and added that previous experience suggests a 5-fold or so
> increase in life expectancy for the barrel.
>
> Apparently, cryo treating causes significant permanent physical changes,
> so you really AREN'T just full of hype! (not that I ever doubted, of
> course ...)
>
> Phil
>
> PEARL Cust Serv wrote:
>
> > Yo Joes:
> > I have a pair of seemingly NOS JAN GE 211s that I just cryo treated.
> > I'll give 6 months warranty provided that you don't do anything dumb
> > with them. . . . the honor system.
> > Pix to any who ask . . . $US150.00 for the pair, no sockets
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Bill - PEARL, Inc.
>
>
=========================================================================
From: E W DAILEY <lazareth@mindspring.com>
Subject: [JN] Janszen electrostatic question
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 23:49:39 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n058
The other day I picked up a Janszen z-412 electrostatic speaker to play with.
Does anyone know how low the 6' electrostatic panels used for the mid
range tweeter
can be crossed over? Before I gut this speaker for parts If anyone has a
broken
pair of them and needs parts let me know.
Woody
=========================================================================
From: Kalman Rubinson <kr4@is2.nyu.edu>
Subject: Re: [JN] Janszen electrostatic question
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:04:25 -0500 (EST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n059
On Tue, 23 Feb 1999, E W DAILEY wrote:
> The other day I picked up a Janszen z-412 electrostatic
> speaker to play with. Does anyone know how low the 6'
> electrostatic panels used for the mid range tweeter can be
> crossed over?
Janszen specced them for 1200Hz or 1000-2000Hz depending on
what you read.
Kal
=========================================================================
From: Thomas Danley <Tom@ppci.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] Janszen electrostatic question
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:40:56 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n061
E W DAILEY wrote:
> The other day I picked up a Janszen z-412 electrostatic speaker to play with.
> Does anyone know how low the 6' electrostatic panels used for the mid
> range tweeter
> can be crossed over? Before I gut this speaker for parts If anyone has a
> broken
> pair of them and needs parts let me know.
>
> Woody
Hi Woody
In the late 70's a couple friends and I built and sold a large , tubular
transmission lines that used 15 of these panels (in a 3 X 5 curved array) for the
high frequency end.
The square Janzen panel (also sold by RTR for a while) had a crossover point of
800HZ
and the half width panels were at 1200HZ.
This driver can be improved significantly by re-mounting each panel on a layer of
"moretite" (flexible window caulk on a roll). Rapping on the panels with a
knuckle produces a "plastic" sound who's spectra is present when producing music.
Deadening the frame helps a bunch.
It is always wise to remember that the force pushing on the radiator of nearly any
speaker is equal but opposite to the force pushing on the frame of the
driver/enclosure. This represents an EQUAL energy and while the driver
manufacturer (hopefully) insured the driver radiator is "good" acoustically, the
builder is responsible for insuring the enclosure is the least effective radiator
possible.
Mass and damping are your friends, mass because the larger the mass is, the
smaller the motion per unit of force and damping to kill resonances which magnify
the output at those frequencies.
As a result, enclosures which have the smallest acoustic signature (output) tend
to be the "brick BBQ" or other heavy construction styles. In the case of the
tweeter panel (and frequencies) , just a bead of Mortite around the frame provides
the mass and damping to "kill" the frame's sound.
Best Regards,
Tom Danley
=========================================================================
From: StepHydro@aol.com
Subject: [JN] Janszen: Looking for parts
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:42:24 EST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n080
Janszen: Looking for parts
Does anyone know about parts availability for these electrostatic speakers? I
need a step-up transformer for a z-110.
I had heard that some company bought rights, design, and spares stock, but
never knew who/where.
TIA/Carron
=========================================================================
From: TubeGarden@aol.com
Subject: Re: [JN] Japanese amplifiers using SATRI circuit
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 16:44:29 EDT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n686
In a message dated 10/4/00 8:11:51 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
lecleach@paris.ensmp.fr writes:
> possess any information about the SATRI principle
Greets!
Of course! Jean-Paul Satri was a famous French philosopher who invented
boredom. He wrote the hit song sung by Janis Joplin :
"freedom's just another word for nothing"
He and his friend Genet built amplifiers out of abondoned bidets found behind
brothels.
Many Pacific Rim jobs use his menu stylings.
Sorry, no other info available.
Happy Ears!
Al B^}
=========================================================================
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Le_Cl=E9ac'h_Jean-Michel?=" <lecleach@paris.ensmp.fr>
Subject: [JN] Japanese amplifiers using SATRI circuit
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 17:09:31 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n686
Helo,
Does anybody possess any information about the SATRI principle applied in
some Japanese amplifiers as those shown at:
http://www.tachyon.co.jp/bp/bp.html
Best regards,
Jean-Michel Le Cleac'h, paris, France
=========================================================================
From: "Paul Croft" <pcroft@iximd.com>
Subject: RE: [JN] Japanese amplifiers using SATRI circuit
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 20:57:28 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n687
Hi Al,
Oh Al, you've done it again! This is great.
Remember that old dead gook rim licker, Spiro Agnew? He used to have pacific
rims freeze dried and then imported to enjoy with his buddy Dirty Dicked
Nixon. You know your an epicure when you go to war (police action) with
another country because those darned "domestic" rims just aren't good
enough! (History explained -compliments of the National Lampoon)
Thanks for a good laugh after a tough day, mano.
Cheers,
Paul
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-sound@lists.io.com [mailto:owner-sound@lists.io.com]On
> Behalf Of TubeGarden@aol.com
> Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 4:44 PM
> To: sound@io.com
> Subject: Re: [JN] Japanese amplifiers using SATRI circuit
>
>
> In a message dated 10/4/00 8:11:51 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
> lecleach@paris.ensmp.fr writes:
>
> > possess any information about the SATRI principle
>
> Greets!
>
> Of course! Jean-Paul Satri was a famous French philosopher who invented
> boredom. He wrote the hit song sung by Janis Joplin :
>
> "freedom's just another word for nothing"
>
> He and his friend Genet built amplifiers out of abondoned bidets
> found behind
> brothels.
>
> Many Pacific Rim jobs use his menu stylings.
>
> Sorry, no other info available.
>
> Happy Ears!
> Al B^}
>
=========================================================================
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Le_Cl=E9ac'h_Jean-Michel?=" <lecleach@paris.ensmp.fr>
Subject: Re: [JN] Japanese amplifiers using SATRI circuit
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 11:30:14 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n688
- -----Message d'origine-----
De : TubeGarden@aol.com <TubeGarden@aol.com>
À : sound@io.com <sound@io.com>
Date : mercredi 4 octobre 2000 23:28
Objet : Re: [JN] Japanese amplifiers using SATRI circuit
>In a message dated 10/4/00 8:11:51 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
>lecleach@paris.ensmp.fr writes:
>
>> possess any information about the SATRI principle
>Of course! Jean-Paul Satri was a famous French philosopher who invented
>boredom. He wrote the hit song sung by Janis Joplin :
Ah yes , now I remember! In the beginning of the 60's, Jack Kerouak (another
famous French) met Satri in Paris.
;-)
Best regards,
Jean-Michel Le Cleac'h
=========================================================================
From: "Tony Bombera" <tbombera@pathcom.com>
Subject: [JN] Japanese Compression Driver Comparison
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 06:48:01 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n678
Hi Joes,
Does anyone have any experience with Japanese compression horn drivers from
Onken, Goto, AEL, YL etc?
I would be especially interested in sound comparison between different
makes.
Or can somebody direct me to some Japanese discussion group?
Many thanks,
Tony Bombera
tbombera@pathcom.com
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: [JN] Japan, Kyoto
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 22:16:37 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n312
Hi all,
This is to inform you that I'll be off to Japan for one week (business).
Yes, sure, I'll look around for tube related stuff over there !
In the meantime you'll be saved from my mails.....
To Joe: I think your list is willing to, within reasonable limits, do what
is needed to keep up SP. All the best !
Guido
=========================================================================
From: Paul Joppa <pj@bottlehead.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] Jazz is like dried-grape pizza
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:28:49 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n816
Doug said:
>... I am quite au currant with the pop scene.
With apologies to our French friends, Doug, vous avez raisin?
best,
- -Paul Joppa
=========================================================================
From: Douglas Purl <dcp@selway.umt.edu>
Subject: Re: [JN] Jazz is like Inedible pizza
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:50:14 -0700 (MST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n814
I can feel that everyone has been breathlessly awaiting my wading in on
this topic. I loathed the series, having become increasingly allergic to
Ken Burns, a pompous Wynton Marsalis alter ego. Burns blunders into
topics about which he is ignorant, selects too few experts in the field,
relies too heavily upon those who share his politics, and is unwarily fond
of hagiography, and no less of inverted hagiography. History, to him, is
a pageant of extraordinary heroes, all of whom gave birth to themelves
along the lines of Moses and the Christ child -- against the wishes of the
Emperor -- and of exceedingly vile villains, who prior to their deposition
have wickedly gained a love to which they are unentitled, that of the
people. But to Burns fate is even crueler than tyrants, for it consigns
our true heroes to a destiny of loss, disappointment, despair, and often
tragedy. Leave a cross lying about and they will eventually be hanging
from it.
To me, never before, or since, have popular art forms attained to the
level of excellence that popular music in America attained to in the
twenties, thirties, and to an extent, the forties. I regard Miles Davis,
Charley Parker, and their ilk to have been destroyers of the tradition of
harmony, melody, and counterpoint. Exactly the same movement occurred in
classical music, almost coextensively, towards a dead end. Little in the
classical vein that was composed since 1950 serves as more than fishwrap.
Bop represents the dawning triumph of Onanism. The fact that Parker could
blow twenty notes per second and noodle self-absorbedly for twenty minutes
is hardly proof of either his greatness or his salutary effect on jazz.
He is, rather, a ghastly mistake.
Take the counterpart of popular music, dancing, that richly symbolic
pantomime of sex. At one time society was authoritarian, and the
authority lay with the fathers. In square dancing, we have couples
dressed to simulate the innocence of teenage rubes, instructed by a
patriarch from moment to moment how they are expected to behave, and what
the limits are of the pleasures they can indugle in. It is the invasion
of the community into the bedroom. The early jazz age ushered in the
flapper, who represented a rebellion against the Christian value that sex
was limited to procreation and women were to avoid either taking or
acknowledging pleasure in their sexuality or the sex act. It is
interesting that this era spawned that of the big band, which galvanized
America during the depression and helped form the character of people who
sacrifice themselves heroically both in the war to come and on the
homefront, in a nation that managed to shoot its way out of the Great
Depression. (Ironically, these heroic folk would produce the most selfish
and trivial generations of humans yet known to mankind.)
Big-band music, which was invented by blacks and taken up by whites, set
toes to tapping and created an irresistible impulse to give physical
expression to one's sexuality, as well as to the joy of being alive in the
flesh. And it also understood that foreplay dwarfs orgasm in social and
personal significance, as well as in its pleasure-giving potential. The
endorphins that reinvigorate men and women are released not by a climactic
event but by the long interval spent in mutual embrace. The big bands did
justice to the ballad, and to the discreet thrill of two bodies swaying in
unison anticipating an eternity of blissful contact. There is a powerful
community impulse in early jazz and its child big band. Soloists step
forward and take their turn, all contributing to a sum greater than its
parts. As bop and then rock and their offshoots come to the fore, they
displace subtlety, profundity, and community; what was an act of love
between man and woman becomes masturbation, a message rock guitarists
flaunt. Even dancing, in the sixties and seventies, became a public
display of autopleasure. Couples were no longer couples; individuals
writhed on the floor to a hideous cacophony in a simulation of endless
orgasm, the child's misunderstanding of romance. Bop, improvisation, and
dissonance are the avatars of the pimply-faced phase of human development,
the triumph of ignorance over mind. They say something unkind about their
devotees.
Jazz did die, but Burns doesn't know when, or why.
Doug Purl
=========================================================================
From: "Andy Evans" <arts.psychology@cwcom.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] Jazz is like Inedible pizza
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 00:35:37 -0000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n814
> I can feel that everyone has been breathlessly awaiting my wading in on
> this topic. > Bop represents the dawning triumph of Onanism. The fact
that Parker could blow twenty notes per second and noodle self-absorbedly
for twenty minutes is hardly proof of either his greatness or his salutary
effect on jazz. He is, rather, a ghastly mistake.>
I'm not sure which forces of the occult inspire one to feel that the world
is breathlessly waiting, but judging by what follows it isn't the forces of
historical analysis.
=========================================================================
From: Phil <tube@jump.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] Jazz is like Inedible pizza
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:45:04 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n814
I agree with Ralph.
Phil
Power.Ralph@epamail.epa.gov wrote:
> Hi Andy,
>
> Doug said :
>
> > I can feel that everyone has been breathlessly awaiting my wading in on
> > this topic. (Big snip)
>
> and you said :
>
> >I'm not sure which forces of the occult inspire one to feel that the world
> >is breathlessly waiting, but judging by what follows it isn't the forces
> of
> >historical analysis.
>
> You may not be familiar with Doug's somewhat "tongue in cheek" style
> of writing, but he is just giving his two cent's worth, just as you did.
>
> I think he makes some interesting points and I, for one, always appreciate
> his comments.
>
> My 2 cents,
>
> - Ralph
=========================================================================
From: Power.Ralph@epamail.epa.gov
Subject: Re: [JN] Jazz is like Inedible pizza
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:13:37 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n814
Hi Andy,
Doug said :
> I can feel that everyone has been breathlessly awaiting my wading in on
> this topic. (Big snip)
and you said :
>I'm not sure which forces of the occult inspire one to feel that the world
>is breathlessly waiting, but judging by what follows it isn't the forces
of
>historical analysis.
You may not be familiar with Doug's somewhat "tongue in cheek" style
of writing, but he is just giving his two cent's worth, just as you did.
I think he makes some interesting points and I, for one, always appreciate
his comments.
My 2 cents,
- Ralph
=========================================================================
From: Neil Jendon <neil@newcontrol.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] Jazz is like Inedible pizza
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:15:13 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n814
So, Doug, Whadya think of the Eminem record?
=========================================================================
From: Michael Greene <mgreene@bnl.gov>
Subject: Re: [JN] Jazz is like Inedible pizza
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 10:03:11 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n814
Doug's highly educated tome is interesting but in my view only partially
correct. The fact that he chooses to lionize the jazz made from the 20's to
40's is merely a choice made to support his argument. I would charge that he
music makers of the earlier era were no more moral than the be-bopper. (Even
goofy looking Rudy Valley was known to be a quite a "hound".)
Charlie Parker and small band jazz was made necessary by economics and
technology. Parker's improvisatory "discovery" can be put down to artistic
ambition - remember that Black intellectuals had very few outlets in 1940's
apartheid America. How many people realize that many of the "red caps" working
as bag handlers in big city train stations during that era were PhD's waiting
for a professor at a segregated Black university to die so that they could go
to work? To say that Parker's playing was onanism is a reductio ad absurdum
argument - and evidences a lack of understanding of the rythymic/melodic
accomplishment of the be-boppers - as well as apparently making an artistic
judgment based on a repugnance for their supposed lifestyle.
That the late coming imitators, who had dimishing amounts of Parker's genius -
til we get to the often musically braindead stadium rock era noodle fests -
were/are indulged in a lame mastertbatory exercise is obviously true in many
cases - as is the fact that all entertainment has increasingly had the
function of enervating and retarding the public. This is why the main thesis
that Doug has outlined is incorrect in regard to be-bop - it was an
intellectual foray if nothing else and became unpopular (or was depopularized)
exactly for that reason.
If you want to compare jazz to something, compare it to art. See the big band
pop as the salon of the 1890's and be-bop as cubism - then contrast Jackson
Pollack with Coltrane and Ornette.
Mike
Douglas Purl wrote:
> To me, never before, or since, have popular art forms attained to the
> level of excellence that popular music in America attained to in the
> twenties, thirties, and to an extent, the forties. The fact that Parker
> could
> blow twenty notes per second and noodle self-absorbedly for twenty minutes
> is hardly proof of either his greatness or his salutary effect on jazz.
> He is, rather, a ghastly mistake.
>
=========================================================================
From: Douglas Purl <dcp@selway.umt.edu>
Subject: Re: [JN] Jazz is like Inedible pizza
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 15:16:25 -0700 (MST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n814
On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, Neil Jendon wrote:
> So, Doug, Whadya think of the Eminem record?
Last week someone on a small group of pretentious folk I
hang out with virtually mentioned that name sarcastically. I thought it
was a record label. Today I read in the paper that it is the name of a
person. I am quite au currant with the pop scene.
Though I have never heard him, I do know that Bob Marley is a dead saint
in whose revered name people regularly take drugs, and that a whole
generation of erstwhile hippies still insist that an astonishingly
untalented nose-whiner named Bob Zimmerman is/was a man of note.
Doug Purl
=========================================================================
From: Douglas Purl <dcp@selway.umt.edu>
Subject: Re: [JN] Jazz is like Inedible pizza
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 15:45:25 -0700 (MST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n815
On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, Michael Greene wrote:
> Doug's highly educated tome is interesting but in my view only partially
> correct. The fact that he chooses to lionize the jazz made from the 20's to
> 40's is merely a choice made to support his argument. I would charge that he
> music makers of the earlier era were no more moral than the be-bopper. (Even
> goofy looking Rudy Valley was known to be a quite a "hound".)
And I would agree that morality is not at issue. I was compressing,
stacking assertions unadoned by clarifying exposition. I was talking
descriptively, not normatively, seeking to find why fashions were coming
and going in mere half-generations.
As to Randy Rudy Vallee's putative proficiencies, he is one of four actors
in Hollywood history whose endowment is claimed to non-pareil. The others
are Milton Berle, Rex Harrison, and Forrest Tucker, the last aptly
named. Unfortunately the ladies who can attest are growing thin on the
ground, and doubtless disinclined to lay their anecdotes open to
inspection.
I am not sure how Rudy fits in your scheme. Very much a sweet-band leader
and crooner.
> Charlie Parker and small band jazz was made necessary by economics and
> technology. Parker's improvisatory "discovery" can be put down to artistic
> ambition - remember that Black intellectuals had very few outlets in 1940's
> apartheid America. How many people realize that many of the "red caps" working
> as bag handlers in big city train stations during that era were PhD's waiting
> for a professor at a segregated Black university to die so that they could go
> to work? To say that Parker's playing was onanism is a reductio ad absurdum
> argument - and evidences a lack of understanding of the rythymic/melodic
> accomplishment of the be-boppers - as well as apparently making an artistic
> judgment based on a repugnance for their supposed lifestyle.
Here is my argument more precisely. Improvisation is a dead end. It
requires a ceaseless moving away from the center. No matter how
ingenious, it eventually inverts, perforce, ends and means. As soon as
improvisation becomes the reperformance of cadenzas, as it were, it loses
its high-wire tingle, and subsides into routine. As improvisation reaches
for novelty by compounding liberties with the key and theme, it becomes
esoteric, abstract, and pretentious. There is much to be said for 32
bars.
Great jazz and great swing do one of two things: they set the toes to
tapping or bodies to swaying. In other words, they are sensuous
experiences that seque into the sensual, and set people to dancing. Long,
Parker-like flights paste listeners in their chairs. They draw us into
ourselves, and leadeth not unto one another.
> That the late coming imitators, who had dimishing amounts of Parker's genius -
> til we get to the often musically braindead stadium rock era noodle fests -
> were/are indulged in a lame mastertbatory exercise is obviously true in many
> cases - as is the fact that all entertainment has increasingly had the
> function of enervating and retarding the public. This is why the main thesis
> that Doug has outlined is incorrect in regard to be-bop - it was an
> intellectual foray if nothing else and became unpopular (or was depopularized)
> exactly for that reason.
It led directly to rock and roll, which led to that nadir of culture,
rock
> If you want to compare jazz to something, compare it to art. See the big band
> pop as the salon of the 1890's and be-bop as cubism - then contrast Jackson
> Pollack with Coltrane and Ornette.
Art imploded. So too has much of music. Neither tends to tell a story.
Doug Purl
=========================================================================
From: "Phil Sieg" <psieg@nxs.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] Jazz is like Inedible pizza
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:40:24 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n815
Doug, all,
>
> Last week someone on a small group of pretentious folk I
> hang out with virtually mentioned that name sarcastically. I thought it
> was a record label. Today I read in the paper that it is the name of a
> person. I am quite au currant with the pop scene.
Don't feel bad. For the longest I thought it was some New-Age form of
cleaning out the lower end of my digestive tract. Or a new candy.
>
> Though I have never heard him, I do know that Bob Marley is a dead saint
> in whose revered name people regularly take drugs,
Personally, I always started out by taking drugs in my own name. Alter egos
came later in the evening.
and that a whole
> generation of erstwhile hippies still insist that an astonishingly
> untalented nose-whiner named Bob Zimmerman is/was a man of note.
Little Bobbie Diehard? Just because he can't sing, play a guitar or
harmonica, and changed his shtick every time it appeared that the loyal
droves were about to stop providing him with huge bags of gelt to haul off
to the bank? You, sir, are a cynic.
Phil
=========================================================================
From: Thomas Danley <Tom@ppci.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] Jazz is like Inedible pizza
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:30:30 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n815
Douglas Purl wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, Neil Jendon wrote:
>
> > So, Doug, Whadya think of the Eminem record?
>
> Last week someone on a small group of pretentious folk I
> hang out with virtually mentioned that name sarcastically. I thought it
> was a record label. Today I read in the paper that it is the name of a
> person.
Doug, don't believe it, Eminem is really an unpleasant bathroom/medical
procedure involving ones solid waste elimination system, or at least that's
the general "flavor" in his music.
Tom
=========================================================================
From: John Niven <jn@cypress.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] Jazz is like Inedible pizza
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:42:36 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n815
Douglas Purl wrote:
> There is much to be said for 32 bars.
Yeh, I think I'll go find one.....
John
=========================================================================
From: TubeGarden@aol.com
Subject: Re: [JN] Jazz is like Inedible pizza
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:09:26 EST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n815
- --part1_4e.11c89cbe.27c5c0c6_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Greets!
I like the beat, so, I gave it an 81...
Happy Ears!
Al B^)
'dancin' to the guitar man"
- --part1_4e.11c89cbe.27c5c0c6_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT SIZE=2>Greets!
<BR>
<BR>I like the beat, so, I gave it an 81...
<BR>
<BR>Happy Ears!
<BR>Al B^)
<BR>
<BR>'dancin' to the guitar man"
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>
- --part1_4e.11c89cbe.27c5c0c6_boundary--
=========================================================================
From: TubeGarden@aol.com
Subject: Re: [JN] Jazz is like Inedible pizza
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:14:18 EST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n815
- --part1_31.10cc1b0c.27c5c1ea_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 2/21/01 4:15:07 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
dcp@selway.umt.edu writes:
>
Stick to the good stuff... wonder where it came from?
Happy Ears!
Al B^}
- --part1_31.10cc1b0c.27c5c1ea_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT SIZE=2>In a message dated 2/21/01 4:
15:07 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
<BR>dcp@selway.umt.edu writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px
; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Improvisation is a dead end. </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR>Stick to the good stuff... wonder where it came from?
<BR>
<BR>Happy Ears!
<BR>Al B^}
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>
- --part1_31.10cc1b0c.27c5c1ea_boundary--
=========================================================================
From: "Jon Lane" <jhlane@reflexnet.net>
Subject: RE: [JN] Jazz is like Inedible pizza
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:24:38 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n815
> So, Doug, Whadya think of the Eminem record?
Can't speak for Doug, but Madonna sez E is less offensive
than Dubya.
Maybe it's a moral issue after all.
Jon Lane
=========================================================================
From: "Epstein, Jeremy" <JEpstein@ndbcap.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] Jazz is like Inedible pizza
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 08:40:03 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n815
Doug Purl threw this gas on the flames:
>Though I have never heard him, I do know that Bob Marley
That would make you the Big Tree to Marley's Small Axe, I believe, Doug.
Loved your first post, but I can't support ignorance of one of my favorite
musicians. Don't judge a book by the patchouli-scented folks who read it.
- -j
=========================================
Jeremy Epstein........jepstein@ndbcap.com
=========================================
=========================================================================
From: Michael Greene <mgreene@bnl.gov>
Subject: Re: [JN] Jazz is like Inedible pizza
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 09:20:54 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n815
I agree that Doug is a clever fellow with his Clement Freud type humour - Forrest
Tucker, indeed. Yet, he makes serious points.
Douglas Purl wrote:
> I am not sure how Rudy fits in your scheme. Very much a sweet-band leader
> and crooner.
"Rudy Valley" is where the music would have stayed if not for the
vitality and searching of the real jazz innovators.
> Here is my argument more precisely. Improvisation is a dead end. It
> requires a ceaseless moving away from the center.
Every artistic movement becomes a dead end - after it has been fully
explored. I find it quite interesting that after Coltrane, there was no where left
to go in terms of stretching the boundaries of jazz improv and in this respect, I
too subscribe to the notion that "jazz is dead."
> As soon as improvisation becomes the reperformance of cadenzas, as it
were, it > loses its high-wire tingle, and subsides into routine. As improvisation
reaches > for novelty by compounding liberties with the key and theme, it
becomes > esoteric, abstract, and pretentious. There is much to be said for 32
bars.
See above.
> Great jazz and great swing do one of two things: they set the toes to
> tapping or bodies to swaying. In other words, they are sensuous
> experiences that seque into the sensual, and set people to dancing.
Long, > Parker-like flights paste listeners in their chairs. They draw us
into > ourselves, and leadeth not unto one another.
One can, of course, enjoy both types of swing depending on the occasion.
I would suggest that people could use some introspection these days, oh
semi-humourous one.
> It (bop) led directly to rock and roll, which led to that nadir of
culture, > rock
I don't agree. Louis Jordan was doing his thing at the same time as the
be-boppers - showing that R&B was already in full "swing". R&B was an amalgam that
did not depend in anyway on bop - consider the proto-R&B rhythms boogie-woogie. R&B
led to rock not bop. That the hackneyed rockers attempted to adopt the bop lifestyle
via imitating the weaseley beatniks is a different issue.
> Art imploded. So too has much of music. Neither tends to tell a story.
Agree - but this is result of slavish imitation, and not a charge that can be laid
at the door of the innovators. Again, two different issues.
Mike
=========================================================================
From: Christian Rintelen <christian@rintelen.ch>
Subject: Re: [JN] Jazz is like Inedible pizza
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 17:39:47 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n815
"Epstein, Jeremy" wrote:
> Don't judge a book by the patchouli-scented folks who read it.
>
Marley... Patchouli? Something smells wrong here, Jeremy... ;-)
©
=========================================================================
From: "Hugh R. Dean" <aksa1@optushome.com.au>
Subject: Re: [JN] Jazz is like Inedible pizza
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:09:18 +1100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n815
Doug,
You wrote, and I exploded in mirth, this gem:
>Unfortunately the ladies who can attest are growing thin on the
> ground, and doubtless disinclined to lay their anecdotes open to
> inspection.
This is a veritable screamer. I cannot attest to the worthiness of your
jazz critique, but this is a most fetching potpourri of irony, gynecology
and insight!
Bravo, Sir!
Hugh
Hugh R. Dean
Research/Technical Director
www.printedelectronics.com
Melbourne AUSTRALIA
=========================================================================
From: Joe Roberts <jroberts@io.com>
Subject: [JN] Jazz is like pizza
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 11:21:38 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n808
Yeah, I suppose you can say that it is American in a sense, but it's
just a local extension of an imported cultural tradition.
Yeah they have bulgoki pizza at Pizza Hut in Korea but what is that?
To me jazz is an AFRICAN form in diaspora. That in itself implies many
influences, some ancient local and many overlaid "imported" traditions,
such as Islam.
If you listen to music of the "pygmies" of the Kalahari Desert, you will
hear the spirit of jazz. Last year a friend of mine was hosting the
Portela samba school from Rio in his house here in Austin. There was an
old guy jamming on a queca... I swear he sounded like Eric Dolphy or Sam
Rivers squeezing on a soprano.
I also hear a lot of post hard bop solo style in Islamic influenced
music of West Africa where there is often a nasal, clanky lead voice
played on a one string violin (goje) or a high-pitched squawky shepherds
bugle thing.
Such stylistic/organizational correlations (and there are many) suggest
to me that jazz is part of the African tradition. Jazz players may have
heard some African cuts, but Nigerian traditional musicians probably
have not heard much jazz, although I'm sure they would not hesitate to
rip off whatever they could use if they had a chance.
However the point I'm making is not on the level of hearing and
borrowing. I'm talking about deep cultural imprinting shared across the
oceans.
If you look around at all the African New world musical styles, jazz
fits right in there with many Cuban, Brazilian, and North American
African-derived forms, including rap, in terms of organizational
principles. The common ancestor comes from Mother Africa.
This is a centuries old eternal tradition. America is too new to fit
into the equation. Remember that Black Americans were largely segregated
until people were listening to Miles on ultralinear EL-34s and despite
some social rearrangements, there are still distinct cultural traditions
in the Black communities. The depth of the persistence of African
culture in exile in the Americas is really amazing if you study it. More
than meets the untrained eye.
Of course, people of non-African descent can learn the culture and play
Jazz. The thing is that "raw" musical style is only a small part of the
cultural information necessary to do jazz in the tradition. Jazz is an
expression of something bigger than itself and only one expression of a
multivocal afrocreative omniverse.
The big difference between Jazz at the Pawnshop sorta stuff played by
folks whose ancestors made chocolate or built watches and jazz played by
people who grew up shakin to African-derived rhythms within a whole
lifestyle incorporating many other intertwined African survivals is a
major CULTURAL difference.
Europeans, Russians, Japanese and whoever international jazzbo players
are out there are newbies to the "black music" game and, beyond that,
these places are not exactly world centers of the African lifeways that
underlie, inspire, and are refracted through jazz in its "original"
(Afro) American forms.
[There might even be some sense in which White Americans have a foot up
on the Belgian bass players and Dutch drummers in terms of exposure to
and absorption of local Black traditions, as evidenced by devious jazz
pickin' cultural mulattoes such as our own Steve Berger and "Chief
Prince Crazy Glue" himself, jc morrison.
All joking aside, my urban Phila.upbringing involved a lot of intensive
exposure to Black American expressive culture that would be hard to come
by in The Hague.]
Maybe much European Jazz (blues/funk/whatnot) is essentially European
music then, insofar as it is played by Europeans who bring their deeply
held European thing to the music? A lot of it sure comes off that way.
Isn't that the most important thing?
Is it still jazz? Yeah, why not. Everybody's jazzin out in their own
context and what else can they do? I think there is a Mother tradition
though and it is essential to interpret planetary jazz extensions
relative to this source.
Here in Austin, you can buy "taco" pizza, tomato lettuce ground beef +
orange cheddar cheese, a Tex-Mexification of the original tomato pie
practicedby Italians in diaspora in the New World. Does it suck? Is it a
total abortion of the sacred Italo-American concept of the holy pizza
pie of my native South Philly culture. Yes, I think so...but a lot of
people around here like it. Is it still pizza?
Joe
=========================================================================
From: Michael Greene <mgreene@bnl.gov>
Subject: Re: [JN] Jazz is like pizza
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:18:59 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n808
The whole argument reduced to one short analogy. Joe, you is a philosopher!
Mike
Joe Roberts wrote:
> Here in Austin, you can buy "taco" pizza, tomato lettuce ground beef +
> orange cheddar cheese, a Tex-Mexification of the original tomato pie
> practicedby Italians in diaspora in the New World. Does it suck? Is it a
> total abortion of the sacred Italo-American concept of the holy pizza
> pie of my native South Philly culture. Yes, I think so...but a lot of
> people around here like it. Is it still pizza?
>
> Joe
=========================================================================
From: Dave Stagner <dstagner@talkware.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] Jazz is like pizza
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:50:39 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n808
Okay, here's my two cents' worth on the topic... read if you like.
First, i want to avoid the whole question of "Is it *music*?" that so
often gets raised when referring to extreme or highly innovative forms. I
think the high point of my irritation with the Jazz series was when
Branford Marsalis called Cecil Taylor's music "self-indulgent bullshit".
If a sound is made with intent to express a feeling that goes beyond
words, it's music (poetry reading out loud is often musical). So the
question should not be "Is it music?", but rather, "Is it jazz?"
That means jazz is a set of stylistic conventions, and whether a piece of
music is jazz or not is a question of conformity to those conventions.
This will always be fuzzy and subjective, because there will always be
disagreement over exactly what the conventions are, and often whether or
not a piece follows a convention or not. So my opinions here are entirely
subjective, and really are no more than asking "What are the stylistic
conventions of jazz, and how did they arise?"
For me, the root of jazz is the synergy between African rhythmic forms and
expressions, and European harmony and song forms. It is both African and
European. If you remove the European harmonic influence, the music is not
jazz, but rather blues. If you remove the African rhythmic and expressive
influence, the music is classical or popular song forms.
This is a point i think Ken Burns got right historically. The roots of
New Orleans jazz (and i'll accept New Orleans as the "birthplace" of jazz)
came when the rise of Jim Crow laws forced two cultures together - the
purely African diaspora culture of former plantation slaves and their
descendants, and the basically European culture of mixed-race Creoles, who
were classical European musicians. The resulting music was both
rhythmically free (unlike European music) and harmonically sophisticated
(unlike African music). This was jazz.
I'd like to raise a cultural point here... i think jazz is *American*
music. Not African-American, but American in general. Jazz would never
have developed in either Europe or Africa - it could never have overcome
the cultural inertia of the existing musical traditions. Its conventions
are a product of the unique cultural conditions of America through at
least the first half of the 20th century.
Now for another theoretical point - the feelings expressed by music are
not cultural, but universal. Music can and will move people, regardless
of their culture. No one today lives in the culture that created jazz,
not even African-Americans in New Orleans. But jazz still moves us. And
musicians still feel things that are best expressed using jazz forms and
conventions. Nobody *owns* jazz. It expresses itself through everyone
who opens their heart to the music and lets it move them.
Back to the conventions. I think the most important convention of jazz is
the emphasis on individual expression of the moment. Jazz musicians are
trying to play *who they are* and *what they feel* *right now*. This is
something anyone can do, not just African-Americans. The difficulty is
mainly in developing sufficient skill with the instrument and familiarity
with the music to express the desired emotions as purely as possible.
Improvisation is very important to this direct expression.
But jazz isn't the only music which emphasizes individual expression and
improvisation. Rock music has the same emphasis, but most people wouldn't
call it jazz. And there is what i consider a basically European tradition
of free improvisation that i would not call jazz, either. The great
English guitarist Derek Bailey is a purely free player, but i would not
call him a "jazz" musician. He doesn't call himself a jazz musician. So
jazz is but one form of improvised music. And jazz is not purely
improvisational, either... usually, its improvisation is built on a song
form. But jazz does not reject purely free improvisation, either -
Coltrane's "Ascension" is a purely free piece, but only reactionaries like
Wynton Marsalis would question whether it is jazz.
So what other conventions can we use, besides the emphasis on
improvisation and personal expression, to determine whether music is jazz
or not? How about harmonic conventions? That's probably not good ground,
either. Ornette Coleman created a form that rejected European 12-tone
diatonic harmony, but there is little argument that it is jazz (although
can you imagine what Wynton Marsalis would have said about it had he been
around then?). What about rhythmic content? Free jazz, fusion, and
sophisticated compositions all have undermined the swing rhythm that
dominates most jazz, without making the music something other than jazz.
Have we painted ourselves into a corner yet? Is Bill Frisell's modern
work "jazz"? Was it jazz when he arranged Aaron Copeland's "Billy the
Kid"? It was almost certainly jazz when he did Madonna's "Live to Tell",
as surely as Coltrane's "My Favorite Things" was jazz. Was his work with
Naked City "jazz"? Or do we accept the label "Americana" that critics
seem to like these days?
When Charlie Parker ripped through "Cherokee", critics questioned whether
it was jazz. When Ornette Coleman played "Lonely Woman", they questioned
whether it was jazz. When Coltrane played "Ascension", they doubted it
was jazz. When Miles Davis did "Bitches Brew", they said it wasn't jazz
(and that it was a sellout). When Cecil Taylor threw himself at the
piano, they questioned whether it was music at all.
The critics are almost always reactionary, and the louder their
denounciation of a new idea in music, the more important it is likely to
be.
Which brings us to the problem of Ken Burns' Jazz series... he accepted
without question the point of view of modern, reactionary,
backward-looking critics. Not only did this shine an almost purely
negative light on most developments since 1959, but it ignored the hostile
critical reaction to many of the favored historical developments from
their own time. Take the coverage of Ornette Coleman... you'd think he
saw nothing but breathless praise. Did they mention that Downbeat gave
"The Shape of Jazz to Come" *negative* five stars in the original review?
Of course not... questioning the accuracy of critics in estimating the
relevance of contemporary ideas THEN would bring into question their
accuracy now! After Gary Glidden (a professional jazz critic) made such a
big point about the importance of the role of the critic in jazz, he'd be
hard-pressed to admit that many major developments happened despite nearly
uniform critical opposition.
Another thing that irks me about the conservative attitude of Jazz series
is the sheer hypocrisy of many of their authoritative critical statements.
For example, when Miles Davis electrified his band, he was a "sellout".
Was Charles Mingus a sellout because he originally released "Fables of
Faubus" as an instrumental, dropping the politically charged lyrics? Was
Louis Armstrong a "sellout" when he started singing pop songs? Or Ella
Fitzgerald, or Billie Holiday? No, they were all great *interpreters* of
popular music. But there's no suggestion that Miles was "interpreting"
the popular music of his time - no, he was selling out. This is the
Marsalis/Murray/Giddens party line, and consistency be damned.
I suppose i should stop ranting and just mail this off, and wait for the
flames. :}
- --
Dave Stagner <dstagner@talkware.net>
Universal Talkware Corporation
10 Second St. NE Suite 400, Minneapolis MN 55413
ph: 612-843-6749 fax: 612-843-6707
=========================================================================
From: Roscoe Primrose <roscoe@aiko.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] Jazz is like pizza
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:25:03 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n808
Dave Stagner wrote:
>
> Another thing that irks me about the conservative attitude of Jazz series
> is the sheer hypocrisy of many of their authoritative critical statements.
> For example, when Miles Davis electrified his band, he was a "sellout".
> Was Charles Mingus a sellout because he originally released "Fables of
> Faubus" as an instrumental, dropping the politically charged lyrics? Was
> Louis Armstrong a "sellout" when he started singing pop songs? Or Ella
> Fitzgerald, or Billie Holiday? No, they were all great *interpreters* of
> popular music. But there's no suggestion that Miles was "interpreting"
> the popular music of his time - no, he was selling out. This is the
> Marsalis/Murray/Giddens party line, and consistency be damned.
>
> I suppose i should stop ranting and just mail this off, and wait for the
> flames. :}
You won't see any flames from here, I agree 100%!
Peace
- --
Roscoe Primrose
- -- mailto:roscoe@aiko.com -- http://www.aiko.com/roscoe --
"Once in a while you get shown the light
In the strangest of places if you look at it right." Robert Hunter
=========================================================================
From: jc@izone.com
Subject: Re: [JN] Jazz is like pizza
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:30:08 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n808
hey,
it encourages me to no end that this has become such a good topic of
discussion. i really appreciate the "pizza" analogy, which i see as equal
to the "american" analogy. america, as much as pizza (which is pure
american at its best), is certainly much much bigger than its geographical
borders. which is also why so many of the world's "others" feel so
threatened and so in some cases would love to see us burn for it. the irony
is, and there is so much of it too, that most americans don't listen to
"jazz" at all. most americans never go out to hear live music. most
americans couldn't care less about any culture beyond the pop nihilism of
the moment (they reach for their revolvers instead, which is one of the
biggest ironies of all) and the good-intentioned joenet guy who said
something about classical and jazz holding only 3.5% each, of the music
industry market share has his numbers WAY out of whack (we passed 1% for
classical music in 1997 (check stereophile for the lamentations) and jazz
hasn't registered in this country since the 70's). the average japanese
music buyer purchesses 30 jazz recordings for every one an american buys
(billboard). in new york city's lower east side, where you used to be able
to throw a rock in any direction, and chances were it would bean a known
jazz musician when it fell to earth, only winton marsalis could afford to
live. there is virtually NO income in new york to be had playing jazz.
everyone there that i know goes to europe and japan to pay the rent. jazz
is like pizza, except its as if only a few people ever eat it around here.
we know how good it tastes but there's no convincing the rest. "what, you
eat pizza?!!, really? you should try this christine aguilera, with mayo,
its great! or better yet just go away..." the cecil taylor remark really
pissed me off in ken burn's nasty film. but what do you expect from the
mouth of a pop star or a control freak? the thing about jazz that exists in
stark relief to most visible "american" culture today is that it always
built on emotion in a way that required some action on the part of the
listener... from the shoot-outs on 52nd street to the village vanguard of
the mid-sixties. this is the invisible american culture today, although you
better believe that its here and not somewhere else. form and convention
don't lend themselves to this because of the predictability and
manageability inherent to any formalized process. it is the improvised
aspect of jazz that has always pushed its envelope, no surprises. it is
improvising that shows off the human spirit for play, for rebellion, for
seduction, for protest. of course those reactionary bastards get wiggy when
jazz slips out from under them. where most music today serves the light and
un-emotional or the angry yet clueless, jazz at its best always served the
heart in its all its folly.
during the height of the "cool jazz", which really was a major shift from
the post 1950 hard bop thing, for a short time, it became a really "uncool"
thing to play obviously pentatonic blues scales over changes (like
armstrong), whatever they where. with all the modal and "european" harmonic
sensibility that miles and his crew steered into jazz, the gospelish, the
bluesish, the african vocalish jazz tradition enjoyed a period of
"backwardsness" in the mid-end of the fifties. this really alienated people
like ellington and the "older tribe" from the younger, and there was a lot
of talk during that period of bebop and cool as not really being jazz
anymore. it was during that time that louis armstrong said all those nasty
things about parker... who was recently dead and gone. charles mingus began
writing things like "folk forms", and "wednesday night prayer meeting",
"moanin" (anthem that it is!), a lot of it in protest not only of miles but
also of the "traditionalists", and through this entire period of rampant
discord between the camps and factions of jazz (and a really bizarre
chapter of american social history too!) the amazing fact is that it was
probably the richest musical era of the 20th century! ornette recorded
"free jazz" in 1959. sun ra recorded his first 45 singles. copeland and
gould were on fire. etc. etc.... i guess my point is this: there is a
tendency of the academic to tidy up and wipe away the mess. and yet, the
messy stuff is almost always the stuff that matters most. the stuff that
people get upset about. the things that matter are often the things that
you would rather take care of later. that is the biggest crime of
revisionists and reactionaries. they make it seem like it was all better
before, when there was no mess. i think one could make a really compelling
argument that jazz was a real political force in the 20th century. that
louis armstrong was a part of the end of segregation in this country, of
that i am certain. jazz music transcended race in this country and healed
much more than it tore apart. one definition of effective protest is that
it doesn't only criticize but offers up solutions and this jazz always did.
i'll say only one more thing about ken burns: i know when i'm being fed a
line of shit. i want pizza!
jc
=========================================================================
From: "Bart Shepherd \(Home\)" <bart.s@bigpond.net.au>
Subject: RE: [JN] Jazz is like pizza
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 06:19:29 +1100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n808
Far be it for me to argue with a multivocal afrocreative omniverse!
Is this stuff carried in one's genes? I dont think Stan Getz or Keith Jarret
had / have too many of them. Major influencers just for two.
Bart
=========================================================================
From: Christian Rintelen <christian@rintelen.ch>
Subject: Re: [JN] Jazz is like pizza
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:30:03 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n809
jc (who set the date for nyNoise a week too late so I can't attend...grrrmbl)
wrote:
> america, as much as pizza (which is pure american at its best),
you're on thin, very thin ice here, buddy... how about US-hegemony and
cultural arrogance... "pure american at its best"... now this can only come
from an American (or a New Yorker, probably ;-)... if you care for your life,
just *never never* say something similar in Napoli (not Naples, FL!), home of
the real pizza...
> i know when i'm being fed a line of shit.
my words exactely, my words.... ;-)
> i want pizza!
you mean one of these wagon wheel sized pieces of flattened dough decorated
with marshmellows and pineapple slices that you Americans call pizza?!? Gimme
a break err: una vera pizza, per favore!
just my 2 lira*... © <tic>
* definitely not very much (approx. $ 0,0005 ....)
=========================================================================
From: "Phil Sieg" <psieg@nxs.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] Jazz is like pizza
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:17:08 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n809
Well, I found my flak jacket in the back of the closet and along with my
vintage WWII helmet (a la the playwright in Mel Brooks' The Producers) feel
protected enough to weigh in with a contrarian opinion. ;-)
I agree with all of what you say, Dave. The music is American, perhaps our
only indigenous art form. It has undoubtedly branched from its roots in the
African-American culture to embrace a good deal of diverse input from all
over the globe. Gerald Early remarked at the beginning of Jazz's
predecessor Baseball the three things that were uniquely American were our
Constitution, baseball and jazz. Not trying to be jingoistic, but I think
that's pretty close.
The 20th century has seen the blurring of the edges of many forms of
cultural expression. It would be hard to argue that that which we call
classical (in a Western sense) music is rooted in the European experience.
But those lines are quite indistinct now. The Kronos Quartet certainly
pushed the envelope. The Art Ensemble of Chicago is a member of the subset
of jazz called avant-garde, and the music of Antheil and Takemitsu is
considered "classical". Why? Which is a form of Dave's question - what
makes Lester Bowie jazz and Eveylyn Glennie or the Kronos classical? Choice
of instruments? Race? Don't know the answer but it certainly is an
interesting question.
On to the Ken Burns series. At the risk of the wrath of the entire Joe
List, I liked the series in the main. If for no other reasons, the old
stills and clips were worth the price of admission. I prefer to look at it
as a glass half full and celebrate it for what it did well. If more people
are aware of the roots and (partial) development of this art form as a
result, then the series rates a qualified success. If a generation of both
white and black only saw Louis Armstrong as a bug-eyed Uncle Tom who sold
out with Hello Dolly and the like, now they know different.
Those passionately arguing that Burns is "evil" - really now, we are talking
a television program. Hitler was evil. Burns is an opportunistic filmmaker
who happens to be au courant in some circles. He made an accessible
documentary aimed at the non-fan, the uneducated in jazz. That he dwelled
too long on the early days, on Saint Louis and Duke and the white swing
bands is an absolutely true and accurate criticism. I would have loved to
see a great deal more about the post war era. But then I have both the
recordings and the books to resort to for that. I was already a fan, as
were all of you in this thread.
Remember that jazz began to relinquish its hold on the public when it became
less "danceable" and was replaced by a music with a dance beat. Jazz became
the music of intellectuals. Is there any more pretentious prose in the
English language that the liner notes of jazz albums from the '50s? White
liberal intellectuals arguing for the legitimacy of music reconciled to the
"Race music" section of the local record store. And the sad thing is, as we
all know, is the music stood on its own merits and needed none of this.
Little wonder that many were put off - in the same way that the snobbishness
that surrounds wine is off-putting - and found rhythm 'n' blues and rock 'n'
roll a breath of fresh air. You weren't required to "think", just move.
Burns apologia for glossing over the last 30 years of jazz was that history
had yet to have its say on that period. If you saw Baseball, you will
remember that he compressed the last twenty seasons or so into one two-hour
episode for exactly the same reason. I tend to agree with that approach.
Will fusion, avant-garde or free jazz endure? Will it be celebrated in a
century as genius? I don't know, and I don't think anyone else does either.
Salieri was Vienna's most popular composer at the end of the 18th century.
His operas always had a patron. Today we don't know his music but there's
this guy named Mozart who seems to have hung on in our imagination. Perhaps
post-Bitches Brew Miles, or Ornette and Cecil will do the same.
Oh well,
Phil
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Stagner" <dstagner@talkware.net>
To: "Joe Roberts" <jroberts@io.com>
Cc: <sound@io.com>
Sent: Thursday, 15 February, 2001 16.50
Subject: Re: [JN] Jazz is like pizza
> Okay, here's my two cents' worth on the topic... read if you like.
>
> First, i want to avoid the whole question of "Is it *music*?" that so
> often gets raised when referring to extreme or highly innovative forms. I
> think the high point of my irritation with the Jazz series was when
> Branford Marsalis called Cecil Taylor's music "self-indulgent bullshit".
> If a sound is made with intent to express a feeling that goes beyond
> words, it's music (poetry reading out loud is often musical). So the
> question should not be "Is it music?", but rather, "Is it jazz?"
>
> That means jazz is a set of stylistic conventions, and whether a piece of
> music is jazz or not is a question of conformity to those conventions.
> This will always be fuzzy and subjective, because there will always be
> disagreement over exactly what the conventions are, and often whether or
> not a piece follows a convention or not. So my opinions here are entirely
> subjective, and really are no more than asking "What are the stylistic
> conventions of jazz, and how did they arise?"
>
> For me, the root of jazz is the synergy between African rhythmic forms and
> expressions, and European harmony and song forms. It is both African and
> European. If you remove the European harmonic influence, the music is not
> jazz, but rather blues. If you remove the African rhythmic and expressive
> influence, the music is classical or popular song forms.
>
> This is a point i think Ken Burns got right historically. The roots of
> New Orleans jazz (and i'll accept New Orleans as the "birthplace" of jazz)
> came when the rise of Jim Crow laws forced two cultures together - the
> purely African diaspora culture of former plantation slaves and their
> descendants, and the basically European culture of mixed-race Creoles, who
> were classical European musicians. The resulting music was both
> rhythmically free (unlike European music) and harmonically sophisticated
> (unlike African music). This was jazz.
>
> I'd like to raise a cultural point here... i think jazz is *American*
> music. Not African-American, but American in general. Jazz would never
> have developed in either Europe or Africa - it could never have overcome
> the cultural inertia of the existing musical traditions. Its conventions
> are a product of the unique cultural conditions of America through at
> least the first half of the 20th century.
>
> Now for another theoretical point - the feelings expressed by music are
> not cultural, but universal. Music can and will move people, regardless
> of their culture. No one today lives in the culture that created jazz,
> not even African-Americans in New Orleans. But jazz still moves us. And
> musicians still feel things that are best expressed using jazz forms and
> conventions. Nobody *owns* jazz. It expresses itself through everyone
> who opens their heart to the music and lets it move them.
>
> Back to the conventions. I think the most important convention of jazz is
> the emphasis on individual expression of the moment. Jazz musicians are
> trying to play *who they are* and *what they feel* *right now*. This is
> something anyone can do, not just African-Americans. The difficulty is
> mainly in developing sufficient skill with the instrument and familiarity
> with the music to express the desired emotions as purely as possible.
> Improvisation is very important to this direct expression.
>
> But jazz isn't the only music which emphasizes individual expression and
> improvisation. Rock music has the same emphasis, but most people wouldn't
> call it jazz. And there is what i consider a basically European tradition
> of free improvisation that i would not call jazz, either. The great
> English guitarist Derek Bailey is a purely free player, but i would not
> call him a "jazz" musician. He doesn't call himself a jazz musician. So
> jazz is but one form of improvised music. And jazz is not purely
> improvisational, either... usually, its improvisation is built on a song
> form. But jazz does not reject purely free improvisation, either -
> Coltrane's "Ascension" is a purely free piece, but only reactionaries like
> Wynton Marsalis would question whether it is jazz.
>
> So what other conventions can we use, besides the emphasis on
> improvisation and personal expression, to determine whether music is jazz
> or not? How about harmonic conventions? That's probably not good ground,
> either. Ornette Coleman created a form that rejected European 12-tone
> diatonic harmony, but there is little argument that it is jazz (although
> can you imagine what Wynton Marsalis would have said about it had he been
> around then?). What about rhythmic content? Free jazz, fusion, and
> sophisticated compositions all have undermined the swing rhythm that
> dominates most jazz, without making the music something other than jazz.
>
> Have we painted ourselves into a corner yet? Is Bill Frisell's modern
> work "jazz"? Was it jazz when he arranged Aaron Copeland's "Billy the
> Kid"? It was almost certainly jazz when he did Madonna's "Live to Tell",
> as surely as Coltrane's "My Favorite Things" was jazz. Was his work with
> Naked City "jazz"? Or do we accept the label "Americana" that critics
> seem to like these days?
>
> When Charlie Parker ripped through "Cherokee", critics questioned whether
> it was jazz. When Ornette Coleman played "Lonely Woman", they questioned
> whether it was jazz. When Coltrane played "Ascension", they doubted it
> was jazz. When Miles Davis did "Bitches Brew", they said it wasn't jazz
> (and that it was a sellout). When Cecil Taylor threw himself at the
> piano, they questioned whether it was music at all.
>
> The critics are almost always reactionary, and the louder their
> denounciation of a new idea in music, the more important it is likely to
> be.
>
> Which brings us to the problem of Ken Burns' Jazz series... he accepted
> without question the point of view of modern, reactionary,
> backward-looking critics. Not only did this shine an almost purely
> negative light on most developments since 1959, but it ignored the hostile
> critical reaction to many of the favored historical developments from
> their own time. Take the coverage of Ornette Coleman... you'd think he
> saw nothing but breathless praise. Did they mention that Downbeat gave
> "The Shape of Jazz to Come" *negative* five stars in the original review?
> Of course not... questioning the accuracy of critics in estimating the
> relevance of contemporary ideas THEN would bring into question their
> accuracy now! After Gary Glidden (a professional jazz critic) made such a
> big point about the importance of the role of the critic in jazz, he'd be
> hard-pressed to admit that many major developments happened despite nearly
> uniform critical opposition.
>
> Another thing that irks me about the conservative attitude of Jazz series
> is the sheer hypocrisy of many of their authoritative critical statements.
> For example, when Miles Davis electrified his band, he was a "sellout".
> Was Charles Mingus a sellout because he originally released "Fables of
> Faubus" as an instrumental, dropping the politically charged lyrics? Was
> Louis Armstrong a "sellout" when he started singing pop songs? Or Ella
> Fitzgerald, or Billie Holiday? No, they were all great *interpreters* of
> popular music. But there's no suggestion that Miles was "interpreting"
> the popular music of his time - no, he was selling out. This is the
> Marsalis/Murray/Giddens party line, and consistency be damned.
>
> I suppose i should stop ranting and just mail this off, and wait for the
> flames. :}
> --
> Dave Stagner <dstagner@talkware.net>
> Universal Talkware Corporation
> 10 Second St. NE Suite 400, Minneapolis MN 55413
> ph: 612-843-6749 fax: 612-843-6707
>
=========================================================================
From: "Andy Evans" <arts.psychology@cwcom.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] Jazz is like pizza
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:25:34 -0000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n809
the good-intentioned joenet guy who said something about classical and jazz
holding only 3.5% each, of the music industry market share has his numbers
WAY out of whack>
I forget the exact source, but these were the numbers - fairly recent off a
rec.music.classical.recordings post. Could be a question of where you put
different types of "crossover" music, or what market was being described.
(snip excellent post)
Jazz has certainly been well loved in Europe. I played in Britain for ten
years, Norway for six years and Paris for a few months. Scandinavia was the
best -people really really loved the music and took care of the musicians -
my happiest memories (I'm a bassist). Like jc I remember the extraordinary
sixties - the biggest life and culture fest ever - and the incredible
richness of experiment. In a typical week Sgt Pepper would come out on
Monday, a new Miles album on Tuesday, an Ibsen film on Wednesday, a new Bob
Dylan album on Thursday, a Polanski film on Friday... (Saturday you'd be too
busy shagging..)
The part of jazz that survived all this - for me - was hard bop. Yes, I
listen to stuff from Rev.Davis to Taj Mahal to Donny Hathaway to Weather
Report, but the 'jazz' I know and love is the changes. These go on in my
head night and day (hmm, that's a good one..) and in particular the meaty
bop changes like Moment's Notice, Giant Steps, Bolivia, Nica's Dream, Lush
Life, Pensativa etc. For me these changes are the hard core of jazz, and my
guys are people like Cedar Walton, Clifford Jordan, Freddie Hubbard, Lee
Morgan, Coltrane and all those guys that could play the hell out of changes,
really explore the inner corners and produce long lines of modulations. This
is exactly the kind of jazz that a lot of people find 'impenetrable'. Maybe
it gets to be a musicians music, but in Paris and elsewhere they used to
dance to that stuff! I know - I've seen them do it. Forget pizza, now THAT's
culture!
Andy Evans: andy@artsandmedia.com
Visit our website: http://www.artsandmedia.com
=========================================================================
From: David Barnett <d_n_b@swbell.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] Jazz is like pizza
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 12:07:57 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n809
On Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:30:08 -0500, jc@izone.com wrote:
>and the good-intentioned joenet guy who said
>something about classical and jazz holding only 3.5% each, of the music
>industry market share has his numbers WAY out of whack
These numbers could be skewed by Kenny G. and "Chant"...
- --dnb
=========================================================================
From: "Bart Shepherd \(Home\)" <bart.s@bigpond.net.au>
Subject: RE: [JN] Jazz is like pizza
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 20:01:09 +1100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n809
I suppose i should stop ranting and just mail this off, and wait for the
flames. :}
- --
Dave Stagner <dstagner@talkware.net>
Well Dave,
I agree with everything you say!
Sounds to me like you might actually listen to the music too!!
Bart
=========================================================================
From: "Bart Shepherd \(Home\)" <bart.s@bigpond.net.au>
Subject: RE: [JN] Jazz is like pizza
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 20:41:49 +1100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n809
hey jc,
Can't disagree with your statistics, but he greatest thing that ever
happened for me over here in Sydney is the CD!
Much as I love vinyl, the CD led to the re-issue of a huge repertoire of
existing modern Jazz previously unavailable in this country.
Somebody other than me must be buying it, the shelves are full of it.
Seems a big range selling in California too at places like Borders when I
visit. So it seems to have much more than 1% of the shelf space but I guess
only at a few specialist outlets.
Still reckon Jazz is American, Pizza is Italian, Cricket is English but not
so sure golf is Scottish ;-)
Maybe if it was played by Sean in tartan plus-fours and a silly hat with a
pom-pom, but then again he is Irish anyway!
Cheers,
Bart
=========================================================================
From: "Bart Shepherd \(Home\)" <bart.s@bigpond.net.au>
Subject: RE: [JN] Jazz is like pizza
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 00:03:11 +1100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n809
>I know - I've seen them do it. Forget pizza, now THAT's culture!
>Andy Evans
AMEN
=========================================================================
From: "Anya and Fred Humphrey" <afhumphrey@idirect.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] Jazz is like pizza
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:49:00 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n813
I've tried to avoid writing this because I'm a slow typist, and the list has
moved on, but I'm getting obsessed with it. When I'm supposed to be doing my
meditation practice I catch myself composing Jazz letters.
I was quite taken aback at first by the amount and degree of hostility to
the series. On the whole I enjoyed it. My wife and I giggled at the
stentorian (isn't that a speaker?) announcer finding new ways to say "...
and changed the sound of jazz forever." But I really liked the approach of
dealing with periods yet reverting to the changing careers of a few key
artists over time. And I liked Wynton. No, I have no regard for him as a
jazz musician, but he wasn't being that here, or even a critic. As a music
educator he's articulate, energetic, charming and knowledgeable. Gary
Giddings was fun to listen to as well although not as impressive as in some
of the reviews he wrote for Fi. Hearing and seeing lots of Armstrong and
Ellington was good too. How can you have too much of them? The fact that
retrogessive traditionalists have deified them doesn't diminish their
greatness.
So I was pleased with the series through Parker and then found myself
getting excited to see what they would do with Bud Powell. As jc pointed
out - nothing. It ended with a whimper. I would have probably just forgotten
about it if not for all the criticism here. Its sins were mainly of omission
but it's taken awhile for me to see how serious those omissions were. It
really is as someone said here, a revisionist history. Monk, but no Bud.
Sarah Vaughan, but no Dinah Washington. No Pharoah Saunders, no Archie
Shepp, no Muhal Richard Abrams. No Sun Ra, for heaven's sake! or Rahsann
Roland Kirk. I could go on interminably, but what these particular omissions
have in common, at least for me, is their deep integrity, their insistance
on being themselves, their inwardness. On first encounter they may seem to
be crazy eccentrics, but as you get into their music it can expand your
sense of what it means to be human. The series touched on Trane's notion of
jazz as spiritual healer, but it didn't want to look at the hellish chaos he
made you go through before you were rocked in the arms of his rich, sure
tone.
Ultimately Jazz tried to make jazz safe and accessible, but in the process
to some extent it trivialized it and reduced it to mere entertainment.
(Leaving us with the bland aural wallpaper that passes for jazz on NPR.
Thanks for all the thought provoking posts on this.
Fred
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Sieg" <psieg@nxs.net>
To: "Dave Stagner" <dstagner@talkware.net>; "Joe Roberts" <jroberts@io.com>
Cc: <sound@io.com>
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 11:17 AM
Subject: Re: [JN] Jazz is like pizza
> Well, I found my flak jacket in the back of the closet and along with my
> vintage WWII helmet (a la the playwright in Mel Brooks' The Producers)
feel
> protected enough to weigh in with a contrarian opinion. ;-)
>
> I agree with all of what you say, Dave. The music is American, perhaps
our
> only indigenous art form. It has undoubtedly branched from its roots in
the
> African-American culture to embrace a good deal of diverse input from all
> over the globe. Gerald Early remarked at the beginning of Jazz's
> predecessor Baseball the three things that were uniquely American were our
> Constitution, baseball and jazz. Not trying to be jingoistic, but I think
> that's pretty close.
>
> The 20th century has seen the blurring of the edges of many forms of
> cultural expression. It would be hard to argue that that which we call
> classical (in a Western sense) music is rooted in the European experience.
> But those lines are quite indistinct now. The Kronos Quartet certainly
> pushed the envelope. The Art Ensemble of Chicago is a member of the
subset
> of jazz called avant-garde, and the music of Antheil and Takemitsu is
> considered "classical". Why? Which is a form of Dave's question - what
> makes Lester Bowie jazz and Eveylyn Glennie or the Kronos classical?
Choice
> of instruments? Race? Don't know the answer but it certainly is an
> interesting question.
>
> On to the Ken Burns series. At the risk of the wrath of the entire Joe
> List, I liked the series in the main. If for no other reasons, the old
> stills and clips were worth the price of admission. I prefer to look at
it
> as a glass half full and celebrate it for what it did well. If more
people
> are aware of the roots and (partial) development of this art form as a
> result, then the series rates a qualified success. If a generation of
both
> white and black only saw Louis Armstrong as a bug-eyed Uncle Tom who sold
> out with Hello Dolly and the like, now they know different.
>
> Those passionately arguing that Burns is "evil" - really now, we are
talking
> a television program. Hitler was evil. Burns is an opportunistic
filmmaker
> who happens to be au courant in some circles. He made an accessible
> documentary aimed at the non-fan, the uneducated in jazz. That he dwelled
> too long on the early days, on Saint Louis and Duke and the white swing
> bands is an absolutely true and accurate criticism. I would have loved to
> see a great deal more about the post war era. But then I have both the
> recordings and the books to resort to for that. I was already a fan, as
> were all of you in this thread.
>
> Remember that jazz began to relinquish its hold on the public when it
became
> less "danceable" and was replaced by a music with a dance beat. Jazz
became
> the music of intellectuals. Is there any more pretentious prose in the
> English language that the liner notes of jazz albums from the '50s? White
> liberal intellectuals arguing for the legitimacy of music reconciled to
the
> "Race music" section of the local record store. And the sad thing is, as
we
> all know, is the music stood on its own merits and needed none of this.
> Little wonder that many were put off - in the same way that the
snobbishness
> that surrounds wine is off-putting - and found rhythm 'n' blues and rock
'n'
> roll a breath of fresh air. You weren't required to "think", just move.
>
> Burns apologia for glossing over the last 30 years of jazz was that
history
> had yet to have its say on that period. If you saw Baseball, you will
> remember that he compressed the last twenty seasons or so into one
two-hour
> episode for exactly the same reason. I tend to agree with that approach.
> Will fusion, avant-garde or free jazz endure? Will it be celebrated in a
> century as genius? I don't know, and I don't think anyone else does
either.
>
> Salieri was Vienna's most popular composer at the end of the 18th century.
> His operas always had a patron. Today we don't know his music but there's
> this guy named Mozart who seems to have hung on in our imagination.
Perhaps
> post-Bitches Brew Miles, or Ornette and Cecil will do the same.
>
> Oh well,
>
> Phil
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave Stagner" <dstagner@talkware.net>
> To: "Joe Roberts" <jroberts@io.com>
> Cc: <sound@io.com>
> Sent: Thursday, 15 February, 2001 16.50
> Subject: Re: [JN] Jazz is like pizza
>
>
> > Okay, here's my two cents' worth on the topic... read if you like.
> >
> > First, i want to avoid the whole question of "Is it *music*?" that so
> > often gets raised when referring to extreme or highly innovative forms.
I
> > think the high point of my irritation with the Jazz series was when
> > Branford Marsalis called Cecil Taylor's music "self-indulgent bullshit".
> > If a sound is made with intent to express a feeling that goes beyond
> > words, it's music (poetry reading out loud is often musical). So the
> > question should not be "Is it music?", but rather, "Is it jazz?"
> >
> > That means jazz is a set of stylistic conventions, and whether a piece
of
> > music is jazz or not is a question of conformity to those conventions.
> > This will always be fuzzy and subjective, because there will always be
> > disagreement over exactly what the conventions are, and often whether or
> > not a piece follows a convention or not. So my opinions here are
entirely
> > subjective, and really are no more than asking "What are the stylistic
> > conventions of jazz, and how did they arise?"
> >
> > For me, the root of jazz is the synergy between African rhythmic forms
and
> > expressions, and European harmony and song forms. It is both African
and
> > European. If you remove the European harmonic influence, the music is
not
> > jazz, but rather blues. If you remove the African rhythmic and
expressive
> > influence, the music is classical or popular song forms.
> >
> > This is a point i think Ken Burns got right historically. The roots of
> > New Orleans jazz (and i'll accept New Orleans as the "birthplace" of
jazz)
> > came when the rise of Jim Crow laws forced two cultures together - the
> > purely African diaspora culture of former plantation slaves and their
> > descendants, and the basically European culture of mixed-race Creoles,
who
> > were classical European musicians. The resulting music was both
> > rhythmically free (unlike European music) and harmonically sophisticated
> > (unlike African music). This was jazz.
> >
> > I'd like to raise a cultural point here... i think jazz is *American*
> > music. Not African-American, but American in general. Jazz would never
> > have developed in either Europe or Africa - it could never have overcome
> > the cultural inertia of the existing musical traditions. Its
conventions
> > are a product of the unique cultural conditions of America through at
> > least the first half of the 20th century.
> >
> > Now for another theoretical point - the feelings expressed by music are
> > not cultural, but universal. Music can and will move people, regardless
> > of their culture. No one today lives in the culture that created jazz,
> > not even African-Americans in New Orleans. But jazz still moves us.
And
> > musicians still feel things that are best expressed using jazz forms and
> > conventions. Nobody *owns* jazz. It expresses itself through everyone
> > who opens their heart to the music and lets it move them.
> >
> > Back to the conventions. I think the most important convention of jazz
is
> > the emphasis on individual expression of the moment. Jazz musicians are
> > trying to play *who they are* and *what they feel* *right now*. This is
> > something anyone can do, not just African-Americans. The difficulty is
> > mainly in developing sufficient skill with the instrument and
familiarity
> > with the music to express the desired emotions as purely as possible.
> > Improvisation is very important to this direct expression.
> >
> > But jazz isn't the only music which emphasizes individual expression and
> > improvisation. Rock music has the same emphasis, but most people
wouldn't
> > call it jazz. And there is what i consider a basically European
tradition
> > of free improvisation that i would not call jazz, either. The great
> > English guitarist Derek Bailey is a purely free player, but i would not
> > call him a "jazz" musician. He doesn't call himself a jazz musician.
So
> > jazz is but one form of improvised music. And jazz is not purely
> > improvisational, either... usually, its improvisation is built on a song
> > form. But jazz does not reject purely free improvisation, either -
> > Coltrane's "Ascension" is a purely free piece, but only reactionaries
like
> > Wynton Marsalis would question whether it is jazz.
> >
> > So what other conventions can we use, besides the emphasis on
> > improvisation and personal expression, to determine whether music is
jazz
> > or not? How about harmonic conventions? That's probably not good
ground,
> > either. Ornette Coleman created a form that rejected European 12-tone
> > diatonic harmony, but there is little argument that it is jazz (although
> > can you imagine what Wynton Marsalis would have said about it had he
been
> > around then?). What about rhythmic content? Free jazz, fusion, and
> > sophisticated compositions all have undermined the swing rhythm that
> > dominates most jazz, without making the music something other than jazz.
> >
> > Have we painted ourselves into a corner yet? Is Bill Frisell's modern
> > work "jazz"? Was it jazz when he arranged Aaron Copeland's "Billy the
> > Kid"? It was almost certainly jazz when he did Madonna's "Live to
Tell",
> > as surely as Coltrane's "My Favorite Things" was jazz. Was his work
with
> > Naked City "jazz"? Or do we accept the label "Americana" that critics
> > seem to like these days?
> >
> > When Charlie Parker ripped through "Cherokee", critics questioned
whether
> > it was jazz. When Ornette Coleman played "Lonely Woman", they
questioned
> > whether it was jazz. When Coltrane played "Ascension", they doubted it
> > was jazz. When Miles Davis did "Bitches Brew", they said it wasn't jazz
> > (and that it was a sellout). When Cecil Taylor threw himself at the
> > piano, they questioned whether it was music at all.
> >
> > The critics are almost always reactionary, and the louder their
> > denounciation of a new idea in music, the more important it is likely to
> > be.
> >
> > Which brings us to the problem of Ken Burns' Jazz series... he accepted
> > without question the point of view of modern, reactionary,
> > backward-looking critics. Not only did this shine an almost purely
> > negative light on most developments since 1959, but it ignored the
hostile
> > critical reaction to many of the favored historical developments from
> > their own time. Take the coverage of Ornette Coleman... you'd think he
> > saw nothing but breathless praise. Did they mention that Downbeat gave
> > "The Shape of Jazz to Come" *negative* five stars in the original
review?
> > Of course not... questioning the accuracy of critics in estimating the
> > relevance of contemporary ideas THEN would bring into question their
> > accuracy now! After Gary Glidden (a professional jazz critic) made such
a
> > big point about the importance of the role of the critic in jazz, he'd
be
> > hard-pressed to admit that many major developments happened despite
nearly
> > uniform critical opposition.
> >
> > Another thing that irks me about the conservative attitude of Jazz
series
> > is the sheer hypocrisy of many of their authoritative critical
statements.
> > For example, when Miles Davis electrified his band, he was a "sellout".
> > Was Charles Mingus a sellout because he originally released "Fables of
> > Faubus" as an instrumental, dropping the politically charged lyrics?
Was
> > Louis Armstrong a "sellout" when he started singing pop songs? Or Ella
> > Fitzgerald, or Billie Holiday? No, they were all great *interpreters*
of
> > popular music. But there's no suggestion that Miles was "interpreting"
> > the popular music of his time - no, he was selling out. This is the
> > Marsalis/Murray/Giddens party line, and consistency be damned.
> >
> > I suppose i should stop ranting and just mail this off, and wait for the
> > flames. :}
> > --
> > Dave Stagner <dstagner@talkware.net>
> > Universal Talkware Corporation
> > 10 Second St. NE Suite 400, Minneapolis MN 55413
> > ph: 612-843-6749 fax: 612-843-6707
> >
=========================================================================
From: David Barnett <d_n_b@swbell.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] Jazz is like pizza
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:01:51 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n814
I think that Ken Burns' biggest mistake was to hire Wynton Marsalis
instead of Harvey Pekar.
- --dnb
=========================================================================
From: TubeGarden@aol.com
Subject: Re: [JN] Jazz is, like, you know, jazz
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 13:01:37 EST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n815
- --part1_31.10cd1be0.27c6ae01_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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In a message dated 2/22/01 9:39:21 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
christian@rintelen.ch writes:
>
Greets!
...and the wind cries Mary...
Happy Ears!
Al B^}
- --part1_31.10cd1be0.27c6ae01_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT SIZE=2>In a message dated 2/22/01 9:
39:21 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
<BR>christian@rintelen.ch writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px
; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Patchouli? Something smells wrong </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR>Greets!
<BR>
<BR>...and the wind cries Mary...
<BR>
<BR>Happy Ears!
<BR>Al B^}
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>
- --part1_31.10cd1be0.27c6ae01_boundary--
=========================================================================
From: David Suess <ds10760@pace.medtronic.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] Jazz music recommendations
Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 10:18:42 -0500 (CDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n143
Ralph Power says:
> I'm new to the jazz scene, but these have been very good and not too
> radical. Most are from the late fifties, but the sound is quite good.
> A real rythm groove. Must be those tube amps and mixers....
>
> Kind of Blue, Miles Davis and his dream team
> Miles Greatest Hits
> Something Else, Canonball Adderley, Miles and crew
> Benny Carter, Jazz Giant
> Art Pepper meets the Rythm Section
> Blue Note - A Story of Modern Jazz
> Bluetrain, John Coltane
> Dianna Krall, Only Trust Your heart
> Wynton Marsalis, Standard Time
You've named two of the "standards" _Kind of Blue_ and _Blue Train_. I
have both and love them. For more of the same try Sonny Rollins' _Way
Out West_, another minimalist 1-take type of recording like Davis'
KOB.
- - david suess
=========================================================================
From: RALPH POWER <POWER.RALPH@epamail.epa.gov>
Subject: [JN] Jazz music recommendations
Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 10:23:36 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n143
Hi All,
Thanks again to everyone who replied to my inquiries about regulators
and hum problems. I think I will try current regulated filaments on the 6B4Gs
and see what it sounds like.
I thought I'd let everyone in on some nice jazz recordings I've been picking
up mostly from the BMG clearance sale ($2.99 + shipping).
I'm new to the jazz scene, but these have been very good and not too
radical. Most are from the late fifties, but the sound is quite good.
A real rythm groove. Must be those tube amps and mixers....
Kind of Blue, Miles Davis and his dream team
Miles Greatest Hits
Something Else, Canonball Adderley, Miles and crew
Benny Carter, Jazz Giant
Art Pepper meets the Rythm Section
Blue Note - A Story of Modern Jazz
Bluetrain, John Coltane
Dianna Krall, Only Trust Your heart
Wynton Marsalis, Standard Time
=========================================================================
From: Joseph Lowe <jlowe@cdc.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] Jazz music recommendations
Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 12:35:04 -0400 (EDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n143
On Fri, 14 May 1999, RALPH POWER wrote:
> Kind of Blue, Miles Davis and his dream team
The first track is my reference recording for system testing. Listen for
fingers running up and down on the strings of the bass. If you can hear
it, your system has good low level detail.
Try running this track through any audio compression scheme and see what
happens! with MP3 you may want to have a barf bag handy because of the
platform motion if you listen with headphones. The tape hiss and low level
sounds mixed together are more than current audio compression can deal
with.
=========================================================================
From: peterhut@melbpc.org.au (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_H=FCttemeier?=)
Subject: Re: [JN] Jazz music recommendations
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 05:04:39 GMT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n144
On Fri, 14 May 1999 10:23:36 -0400, Ralph wrote:
Mmm, where to start>
You have already got a few of the seminal recordings of jazz. If you
like Miles Davis try the recently released Box set of Davis and Gil
Evans. The remasterering on this is very good and much better sonics
than the original CDs.
Some good european jazz, anything on Proprius label, but especially
Arne Domnerus' Group, Jazz At The Pawnshop. I like vol 3 Good
Vibes.
There are many great releases on Chesky, Anna Caram and Badi Assad for
example.
It is Duke Ellington' 100th birthday ( as discussed here recently)
there are many fine recordings of his as an example of the best of big
band jazz.
As for some of the current crop of modern jazz musicians I like Bela
Fleck and the Flecktones, Flight of the Cosmic Hippo which will really
test out your bass response. If you like Dianna Krall try Cassandra
Wilson. Her recent release Rendevous with pianist Jackie Terrasson has
some unusual renditions of jazz classics.
I had better stop there otherwise it will turn in to my top 100.
Anyway, maybe some things for you to try.
Cheers,
Peter Hüttemeier
President Melbourne Audio Club Inc
http://www.vicnet.net.au/~macinc
26th wonderful year of listening.
=========================================================================
From: "Harry Pitaro" <pitaro@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: RE: [JN] Jazz music recommendations
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 08:08:08 +1000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n144
Hi,
I really hate to generalise but I haven't heard a bad "Blue Note" pressing,
old or new!!! Pick up every one that you see. You will not be disappointed.
Harry.
=========================================================================
From: Eric Weitzman <eweitzman@acm.org>
Subject: RE: [JN] Jazz music recommendations
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 23:09:43 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n145
> From: Joseph Lowe [SMTP:jlowe@cdc.net]
>
> > Kind of Blue, Miles Davis and his dream team
>
> The first track is my reference recording for system testing. Listen for
> fingers running up and down on the strings of the bass. If you can hear
> it, your system has good low level detail.
Lame test. Can't you hear the sound of the wind rushing through the hairs on the
backs of Paul Chambers' fingers as they run up and down the strings of the
bass?
}-^)
=========================================================================
From: TubeGarden@aol.com
Subject: Re: [JN] Jazz Notes :)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 17:16:24 EST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n790
- --part1_74.71c1153.279f5cb8_boundary
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Greets Jeets Neets!
Jazz requires hard work, talent and genius.
Not exactly primo material for a format which seems to like instant wealth
and other peoples' stupidity.
And, of course, production values: Tits and Ass. (Anna, do I lie?)
Just listen to the music, and make up your own stories.
NEVER read liner notes!
Happy Ears!
Al B^}
PS OK, I buy more Keith Jarrett recordings since I found out we have the same
disease. Don't listen to me, neither :)
- --part1_74.71c1153.279f5cb8_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT SIZE=2>Greets Jeets Neets!
<BR>
<BR>Jazz requires hard work, talent and genius.
<BR>
<BR>Not exactly primo material for a format which seems to like instant wealth
<BR>and other peoples' stupidity.
<BR>
<BR>And, of course, production values: Tits and Ass. (Anna, do I lie?)
<BR>
<BR>Just listen to the music, and make up your own stories.
<BR>
<BR>NEVER read liner notes!
<BR>
<BR>Happy Ears!
<BR>Al B^}
<BR>
<BR>PS OK, I buy more Keith Jarrett recordings since I found out we have the same
<BR>disease. Don't listen to me, neither :)
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>
- --part1_74.71c1153.279f5cb8_boundary--
=========================================================================
From: "Bart Shepherd \(Home\)" <bart.s@bigpond.net.au>
Subject: RE: [JN] Jazz Notes :)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 20:42:16 +1100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n791
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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charset="us-ascii"
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> PS OK, I buy more Keith Jarrett recordings since I found out we have the
same
> disease. Don't listen to me, neither :)
Maybe you should change to Chick - he's a Scientologist! ;-)
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2920.0" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN=20
class=3D563034009-24012001>> </SPAN>PS OK, I buy more Keith =
Jarrett=20
recordings since I found out we have the same <BR><SPAN=20
class=3D563034009-24012001>> </SPAN>disease. Don't listen to me, =
neither=20
:) <BR></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN=20
class=3D563034009-24012001>Maybe you should change to Chick - he's a=20
Scientologist! ;-)</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN=20
class=3D563034009-24012001> </SPAN><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><=
BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR></DIV></FONT></FONT></FONT></B=
ODY></HTML>
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=========================================================================
From: "Penury" <wmeckle@qwest.net>
Subject: [JN] Jazz on PBS
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 11:59:16 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n794
Having been a jazz fan since the late 30s, collecting recordings
and attending live performances, the PBS program hasn't said much I
didn't already know or hear.
However I'm grateful for the exposure to non-fans and the
organization of the history of jazz. There is no way everyone can be
recognized or even highlighted.
Lots of already fans will be disappointed, but hopefully new fans will
be formed. I hear jazz recording sales are way up as a result of the
program, and that can't be all bad.
I've heard live most of the featured performers so far in the
program (thru episode 8) so it does bring back lots of (good time)
memories, but maybe I'm just stuck in the past (my favorite all time
group is Weather Report from the 70s).
Anyway, any program dealing with a highly personal subject like
jazz is going to have warts even in 10 installments.
My 2 centovos.
-=Bill Eckle=-
Vanity Web pages at:
http://www.users.qwest.net/~wmeckle
=========================================================================
From: "William Eckle" <wmeckle@qwest.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] Jazz on PBS
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 14:14:07 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n794
At 03:44 PM 1/26/01 -0500, Mark Donen wrote:
>Bill,
>
>I agree with most of what you say. For all its superficiality and
>arbitrariness, on balance I think the show is a good thing.
>
>But I found the moralizing about drugs in the last episode really a bit
>much.
>
Hi Mark:
I agree with most of what you say also. As a follow up to the series I'd like to see & hear a ser
ies of lengthly interviews with those who are still around. Time is running out. Like Jon Hendricks
for instance, talking about his inovations with Lambert, Hendricks, & Ross, and their influence Eddi
e Jefferson.
Anyway thanks for the reply.
<bold><color><param>ffff,0000,0000</param>-=Bill Eckle=-
</color></bold> wmeckle@qwest.net
<italic><color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>Phoenix, Arizona USA
</color></italic>Vanity Web page at:
http://www.users.qwest.net/~wmeckle
=========================================================================
From: "William Eckle" <wmeckle@qwest.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] Jazz on PBS
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 14:16:28 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n794
>
>At 03:44 PM 1/26/01 -0500, Mark Donen wrote:
>>Bill,
>>
>>I agree with most of what you say. For all its superficiality and
>>arbitrariness, on balance I think the show is a good thing.
>>
>>But I found the moralizing about drugs in the last episode really a bit
>>much.
>>
>Hi Mark:
> I agree with most of what you say also. As a follow up to the series I'd like to see & hear a se
ries of lengthly interviews with those who are still around. Time is running out. Like Jon Hendricks
for instance, talking about his inovations with Lambert, Hendricks, & Ross, and their influence Edd
ie Jefferson.
> Anyway thanks for the reply.
>
>
<bold><color><param>ffff,0000,0000</param>-=Bill Eckle=-
</color></bold> wmeckle@qwest.net
<italic><color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>Phoenix, Arizona USA
</color></italic>Vanity Web page at:
http://www.users.qwest.net/~wmeckle
=========================================================================
From: "Mark Donen" <mdonen@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: [JN] Jazz on PBS
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 15:44:59 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n794
Bill,
I agree with most of what you say. For all its superficiality and
arbitrariness, on balance I think the show is a good thing.
But I found the moralizing about drugs in the last episode really a bit
much.
A litany of people were introduced into the narrative exclusively under the
category of being addicts. They had not been mentioned before in the show,
and now here they are appearing for the first time while being denounced as
addicts! Then Marsalis goes on that drugs were in fact bad for the music.
What is he talking about? Incredible music was made by people who were
fucked up, so what if they shot up? It has nothing to do with it. He can't
play like that straight or otherwise. Personally I don't feel that Wynton
comes up to the knees of the people he was implicitly criticizing -- Fats
Navarro, Rollins, Coltrane, Max Roach?! Who is Marsalis? An academic pigmy
who does come up to their knees. (No offense implied to real rather than
metaphorical pigmies) Why is he the spokesman? Rollins is still alive, so is
Roach. Why didn't they get their POV on the issue instead of Mr. moral
Armani suit?
Mark
PS Then there was the savouring of the lurid details of Parker's miserable
death -- they spent much more time on that than on explaining his music. At
least that is how it felt to me. What's this, which is of merely anechedotal
interest at best, got to do with the music if you have such limited time to
talk about it? (And let's not mention the fact that they cut to
talking-heads in the middle of every musical film clip and have them talk to
tell you how great it is -- utterly idiot. Reminds me of people who play
their favourite song to you and say you gotta listen to this and then they
sing at the top of their lungs over the music.
=========================================================================
From: John Levreault <jlevro@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] Jazz on PBS
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 17:06:06 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n794
Andy Evans wrote:
>
> > PS Then there was the savouring of the lurid details of Parker's miserable
> > death -- they spent much more time on that than on explaining his music.
>
> Welcome to "human interest" broadcasting. That way you get to see refugees
> in hollywood swimming pools whenever there's a war on instead of a tactical
> analysis of what's actually going on. Unfortunately, it's all to be
> expected. someone should tell "youf TV" that its attitudes are very
> reactionary.
Wife from the other room: "Are you talking at me?"
Couch-potato husband: "Naw, I'm just yelling at the guy on TV."
JL
=========================================================================
From: "Andy Evans" <arts.psychology@cwcom.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] Jazz on PBS
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 21:21:06 -0000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n794
> PS Then there was the savouring of the lurid details of Parker's miserable
> death -- they spent much more time on that than on explaining his music.
Welcome to "human interest" broadcasting. That way you get to see refugees
in hollywood swimming pools whenever there's a war on instead of a tactical
analysis of what's actually going on. Unfortunately, it's all to be
expected. someone should tell "youf TV" that its attitudes are very
reactionary.
=========================================================================
From: "Epstein, Jeremy" <JEpstein@ndbcap.com>
Subject: [JN] Jazz Pizza
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:20:06 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n809
1) I think you have a very good take on this topic IMO, or at least, you
agree with me.
2) Jazz is not like pizza in at least one important respect - there is
little good jazz in New Haven, CT.
- -j
=========================================
Jeremy Epstein........jepstein@ndbcap.com
=========================================
=========================================================================
From: Roscoe Primrose <roscoe@aiko.com>
Subject: [JN] JBL 4550 cabs
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 18:39:02 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n054
Anyone know where I can get a couple cheap, and or get plans to build
them?
Peace
- --
Roscoe Primrose
- -- mailto:roscoe@aiko.com -- http://www.aiko.com/roscoe --
"Once in a while you get shown the light
In the strangest of places if you look at it right." Robert Hunter
=========================================================================
From: Jim de Kort <jim@vt52.com>
Subject: [JN] jbl data sheets
Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 23:50:23 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n942
Hi Guys,
Coolness, look what I found!!!
http://www.jblpro.com/pub/
All da sheets of every JBL driver one could wish for...
Regards,
Jim de Kort
jim@vt52.com
Visit www.VT52.com for tube
DIY projects and datasheets
=========================================================================
From: "Norman Tracy" <ntracy@galstar.com>
Subject: RE: [JN] JBL Everrest DD55000
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 16:15:08 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n612
Viwat,
Buy them and ENJOY! The Everest line was made just for JBL's Asian market.
Top of the line home speakers. They kept quiet about them in the USA where,
alas, the JBL name and product line is dummied down to include some real
crap discount home, car, and PC speakers. This prompted American audiofools
to throw the baby out with the bath water and declare JBL Not Cool. Not
wanting to hint to the unwashed masses what they are missing no mention of
such wonders makes it to the USA JBL web site. Are you in Asia or did you
find the DD55000 in America?
I can say you will love them with conviction based on recently getting my
JBL 2150 based speaker project online. It's a long story I will share with
the group when time permits. Suffice to say driven with a modern front end
and tube amps this is the best sound I have enjoyed in 30 years as an
audiophile. Years including such audiofool approved speakers as the Stax
ESL-F81 and B&W 802II.
happy listening
Norman Tracy
Audio Crafters Guild
5102 E 38 PL
Tulsa OK 74135 USA
918.627.5878 voice
918.481.0970 fax
ntracy@galstar.com e-mail
www.galstar.com/~ntracy/acg URL
=========================================================================
From: Audio1Nut@aol.com
Subject: [JN] JBL Everrest DD55000
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 16:35:29 EDT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n612
Hi Everyone:
I happen to come across JBL Everrest DD55000 speaker. I only know that it is
Product of the Year by StereoSound of Japan. Sensitivity is 100db, I look in
the JBL web site, but could not find more info on this. Anybody come across
thid speaker, please give me some detail about it because I plan to buy them.
I listen to JBL 4344 and like them, I was told that the Everrest is not meant
for home use, Is this true?
Viwat
=========================================================================
From: Audio1Nut@aol.com
Subject: Re: [JN] JBL Everrest DD55000
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 01:15:46 EDT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n612
In a message dated 29/7/43 4:17:23 SE Asia Standard Time, ntracy@galstar.com
writes:
Viwat,
Buy them and ENJOY! The Everest line was made just for JBL's Asian market.
Top of the line home speakers. They kept quiet about them in the USA where,
alas, the JBL name and product line is dummied down to include some real
crap discount home, car, and PC speakers. This prompted American audiofools
to throw the baby out with the bath water and declare JBL Not Cool. Not
wanting to hint to the unwashed masses what they are missing no mention of
such wonders makes it to the USA JBL web site. Are you in Asia or did you
find the DD55000 in America?
I can say you will love them with conviction based on recently getting my
JBL 2150 based speaker project online. It's a long story I will share with
the group when time permits. Suffice to say driven with a modern front end
and tube amps this is the best sound I have en